Floor Protection

Floor Protection

PostBy: njbill On: Thu Jun 19, 2008 10:14 pm

I'm expecting my Pioneer in a few weeks. In prep for this, I have been going through a terrible fight with my town's mechanical inspector to get a permit to install the unit. Right now I am fighting on the floor protection.

I have looked at documentation from LL, Reading, Alaska, Keystoker for UL testing. All say "use approved floor protector", but no where can I find what approved means. For the wood burners, almost all stoves break this out as R-value and K-value, using 3/8" millboard as the standard for <=.84 k-value. (R-value is the reciprocal of k-value, so I'll take either one for my purpose). With that I can map over to Durock, Micore or whatever.

I refuse to pay $550 for a UL listed floor protector. I am convinced I can construct something that is safe using UL materials and will pass code. Most UL listed floor shields are about 1.44 R-value, which is probably far higher than necessary for this application.

Is there a rating available for the LL Pioneer (it's not in the documentation). I have tried to look at UL 1482 and 1618 (floor protection for 1482 tested stoves) for guidance, but you have to purchase these Ul standards to read them - and they're not cheap. I think what I need is in 1618, but I can't get my hands on it.

As I said, I need something I can use that I can give to the code official. Any help is greatly appreciated!

Thanks.
njbill
 
Stove/Furnace Make: Harman & Leisure Line
Stove/Furnace Model: Magnafire Insert, Pioneer

Re: Floor Protection

PostBy: Devil505 On: Thu Jun 19, 2008 10:22 pm

How about plain old cement backer board? (not sure if it's fire rated though??)
Devil505
 
Stove/Furnace Make: Harman
Stove/Furnace Model: TLC-2000

Re: Floor Protection

PostBy: Freddy On: Fri Jun 20, 2008 6:13 am

I don't think it has a rating, but what I've used and had pass inspection by fire dept is artificial slate. I find it at a hardware store that sells wood stoves. It's one inch thick, 4' by 4'. You'd think it was real rock, but it's not. It acts like it to cut it and it's just as heavy. 7 or 8 years ago was the last time I bought one. At that time they were $45.It used to come in a few colors, but last time, just black.
Freddy
 
Stoker Coal Boiler: Axeman Anderson 130 (pea)
Hot Air Coal Stoker Stove: Reading piece o' junk in the barn (rice)
Coal Size/Type: Pea size, Superior, deep mined

Visit Leisure Line Stove

Re: Floor Protection

PostBy: njbill On: Fri Jun 20, 2008 6:30 am

Durock cement backer is fire-rated and UL tested to standard 1618, with an R-value of .25. I need to have "Approved Floor Protector" defined in terms of R-value (or k-value), so I know how many layers of Durock I need. 1 might be enough, it might not. All coal burners state to use a "non-combustable surface", but to what specification? Non-combustable surface says nothing to the thermal conductivity attributes of the material used. Copper is non-combustable but is a great conductor of heat! This is why I need the R or K value.

My code official needs to know either (a) how the stove was tested or (b) what approved means. (I'm trying to get an answer out of Conam Testing but I'm not holding my breath.) Almost all wood-burning manufacturers print their specifications for floor protection in their manuals. Harman doesn't print it for any of their stoves regardless of fuel type.

I'm not trying to be difficult, this is just what I'm dealing with.
Thanks.
njbill
 
Stove/Furnace Make: Harman & Leisure Line
Stove/Furnace Model: Magnafire Insert, Pioneer

Re: Floor Protection

PostBy: Devil505 On: Fri Jun 20, 2008 7:23 am

njbill wrote:Durock cement backer is fire-rated and UL tested to standard 1618, with an R-value of .25. I need to have "Approved Floor Protector" defined in terms of R-value (or k-value), so I know how many layers of Durock I need. 1 might be enough, it might not.


So put down 2 layers of Durock (staggered) & then put slate (or whatever) as your top layer. That will raise the stove up off your floor, make a nice little hearth/platform & cover your code requirements. No?
Devil505
 
Stove/Furnace Make: Harman
Stove/Furnace Model: TLC-2000

Re: Floor Protection

PostBy: Lumberjack On: Fri Jun 20, 2008 9:57 am

1482 is the one you want but the standards do not appear to be publicly availible.

Sometimes the best way to deal with the inspectors is to use obvious overkill, to the point that it is obvious to any fool that your in compliance and safe. The 1 inch slate suggested seems to fit the bill nicely.
Lumberjack
 

Re: Floor Protection

PostBy: Richard S. On: Fri Jun 20, 2008 10:50 am

Jerry will be able to give you a definitive answer, its a little slow so it might be a while before he sees this but he was here yesterday an hour before you posted this. :D You could also try calling him on the phone if you need an answer right now..
Richard S.
 
Stoker Coal Boiler: Van Wert VA1200
Coal Size/Type: Buckwheat/Anthracite

Re: Floor Protection

PostBy: njbill On: Fri Jun 20, 2008 11:31 am

Devil5052 wrote:So put down 2 layers of Durock (staggered) & then put slate (or whatever) as your top layer. That will raise the stove up off your floor, make a nice little hearth/platform & cover your code requirements. No?


Thanks. What are the national code requirements for hearth protection for use with a pedastal-style Coal Stoker Stove? That's the rub.

This design suggestion is what I'd like to do, but I have nothing to show the code official that this constitutes "Approved Floor Protection" for the LL Pioneer, which is what he wants. I had made this very design suggestion 3 weeks ago and he wouldn't approve it. This design may yield an R value of .70 or so, yet the after market UL listed hearth pads are R=1.44. So, are 2 layers enough or do I need 6?

I have to be able to define what "Approved Floor Protection" means, who "Approved it" and to what thermal conductivity standards (R or k-value). But most important is, does the manufacturer support it? Appreciate the code official's point of view: if there's a fire due to inadequate floor protection that he approved and the manufacturer didn't, he's on the hook. But if the stove manufacturer says it's ok (say, R-value of .50) then he's testing compliance to manufacturer's instructions and we all go home happy.

UL 1618 is the hearth specifications for stoves that comply with UL 1482. UL 1482 does not address hearth protection near as I can tell.

Thanks for your thoughts.
njbill
 
Stove/Furnace Make: Harman & Leisure Line
Stove/Furnace Model: Magnafire Insert, Pioneer

Re: Floor Protection

PostBy: njbill On: Fri Jun 20, 2008 12:03 pm

njbill wrote:My code official needs to know either (a) how the stove was tested or (b) what approved means. (I'm trying to get an answer out of Conam Testing but I'm not holding my breath.)


(Revised from prior post)
Well, I got my answer! Conam tested the stove on 1/2" of Wonderboard with thermalcouplers underneath to verify temperatures remained normal. Wonderboard is rated at R-value of .2 (not in their documentation but verifiable), which means that 1 layer of Durock (R=0.25) is all that's required.

Whew! I am having a letter faxed to me from Conam. I'll scan and post for the benefit of all.

Thanks for your thoughts.

Bill
njbill
 
Stove/Furnace Make: Harman & Leisure Line
Stove/Furnace Model: Magnafire Insert, Pioneer

Re: Floor Protection

PostBy: Yanche On: Fri Jun 20, 2008 4:02 pm

The various states have similar Mechanical Codes. Only a few are posted online for free download. Massachusetts is one of the states with there code available free. Google "Building Code 780 CMR".

Stove floor protection requirement is here: Page 12


http://www.mass.gov/Eeops/docs/dps/BuildingCode7th/780060.pdf
This link is broken, either the page no longer exists or there is some other issue like a typo.


The calculations for heat transfer requirements are in Appendix K see: Page 68


http://www.mass.gov/Eeops/docs/dps/BuildingCode7th/780120.pdf
This link is broken, either the page no longer exists or there is some other issue like a typo.


I would be helpful to completely fill out your personal info so we know where you are.
Yanche
 
Stoker Coal Boiler: Alternate Heating Systems S-130
Coal Size/Type: Anthracite Pea

Re: Floor Protection

PostBy: rberq On: Fri Jun 20, 2008 4:27 pm

It looks like you got an answer, Bill. Thank goodness! This whole thread seems to be testimony to the death of common sense. Your inspector wouldn't accept solutions that were obviously adequate. But if you got a statement from the stove company saying that a sheet of heavy duty Reynolds Wrap was enough, he would have been satisfied.
rberq
 
Hand Fed Coal Stove: DS Machine 1300
Coal Size/Type: Nut -- Kimmel/Blaschak/Reading
Other Heating: Oil hot water radiators, propane

Re: Floor Protection

PostBy: Devil505 On: Fri Jun 20, 2008 4:30 pm

rberq wrote:It looks like you got an answer, Bill. Thank goodness! This whole thread seems to be testimony to the death of common sense. Your inspector wouldn't accept solutions that were obviously adequate. But if you got a statement from the stove company saying that a sheet of heavy duty Reynolds Wrap was enough, he would have been satisfied.




I was thinking the exact same thing! :rimshot:
Devil505
 
Stove/Furnace Make: Harman
Stove/Furnace Model: TLC-2000

Re: Floor Protection

PostBy: Yanche On: Fri Jun 20, 2008 4:53 pm

rberq wrote:It looks like you got an answer, Bill. Thank goodness! This whole thread seems to be testimony to the death of common sense. Your inspector wouldn't accept solutions that were obviously adequate. But if you got a statement from the stove company saying that a sheet of heavy duty Reynolds Wrap was enough, he would have been satisfied.
And that's exactly the way most code enforcement works, it puts the burden of proof for safe operation on the product manufacturer. You can read code after code and it often says, "or per manufacture instructions".
Yanche
 
Stoker Coal Boiler: Alternate Heating Systems S-130
Coal Size/Type: Anthracite Pea

Re: Floor Protection

PostBy: njbill On: Fri Jun 20, 2008 4:57 pm

Yanche wrote:The various states have similar Mechanical Codes. Only a few are posted online for free download. Massachusetts is one of the states with there code available free. Google "Building Code 780 CMR".

Stove floor protection requirement is here: Page 12


http://www.mass.gov/Eeops/docs/dps/BuildingCode7th/780060.pdf
This link is broken, either the page no longer exists or there is some other issue like a typo.


The calculations for heat transfer requirements are in Appendix K see: Page 68


http://www.mass.gov/Eeops/docs/dps/BuildingCode7th/780120.pdf
This link is broken, either the page no longer exists or there is some other issue like a typo.


I would be helpful to completely fill out your personal info so we know where you are.


I found these docs the other night and found them extremely helpful. They are excellent references. BUT - here too they say to use floor protection to manufacturer's specifications.

I updated my profile as suggested. (a 2nd priority - a newbie with a crisis on his hands). But I am in Vernon, NJ (where not to move if you want to burn coal :) ).
Thanks for the help.
njbill
 
Stove/Furnace Make: Harman & Leisure Line
Stove/Furnace Model: Magnafire Insert, Pioneer

Re: Floor Protection

PostBy: njbill On: Fri Jun 20, 2008 8:11 pm

Attached is Conam Inspection letter certifying Durock or Wonderboard (1/2") meets the floor protection safety requirement for Leisure Line Pioneer stove when certified to UL 1482. (The attachment scans big, but drop it into Word and resize as needed for printing.)

By the way, I must extend kudos to Conam for their responsiveness on this matter. I didn't expect much, and I received service beyond my expectation. I had 3 subsequent callbacks to my inquiry, each by a different person that had more information to share. Bill Power authored the letter you see attached.
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njbill
 
Stove/Furnace Make: Harman & Leisure Line
Stove/Furnace Model: Magnafire Insert, Pioneer

Visit Leisure Line Stove