SECOND AMENDMENT UPHELD!

Re: SECOND AMENDMENT UPHELD!

PostBy: coaledsweat On: Mon Jun 30, 2008 1:21 pm

Legal full auto weapons are not as rare as you think and none have ever been used in the commission of any crime to my knowlege. People that own them tend to take the weapons and the laws about them very seriously.
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Re: SECOND AMENDMENT UPHELD!

PostBy: BugsyR On: Mon Jun 30, 2008 1:32 pm

Allentown

http://www.cityrating.com/citycrime.asp ... n&state=PA

2003 didn't look good (compared to national averages)

http://allentown.areaconnect.com/crime1.htm

2006 wasn't good either

Personally, in a way I am for no gun laws what so ever. Arm everyone and allow open carry wherever.
(I kind of like the flame thrower...bit of a fire bug here...not an arson...figure you have to be caught and then found guilty of starting a fire illegally before you can be considered an arson so I guess I'll just stay a fire bug...the warmth of fire is so awesome yet cool... :lol:)

Actual reason why I am responding is because I grew up outside of Allentown (more like a suburb of a suburb of a suburb of Allentown...cooked at City Vu back in the 80's, hopefully no one knows about City Vu in the 80's... :lol: )
Anyway...family is always telling me how Allentown, Bethlehem, and neighboring towns are going down hill. Allentown is not as nice as it appears...then again if more people owned/carried legal guns in Allentown maybe the actual perpetrator would turn out to be the victim in his or her own crime.

I say stay away from gun laws. Make the punishments harder...not longer...harder. Make prison a place where you don't want to go. In cases of murder, make prison a short term stay ;)
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Re: SECOND AMENDMENT UPHELD!

PostBy: Richard S. On: Mon Jun 30, 2008 1:37 pm

I don't think you can blame the guns, you need to blame the environment. There was bar in business for many years locally and the neighborhood that it resided in deteriorated for many years. There was a few violnet incidences there involving guns, of course the solution was to force the closure of the bar. The vilob=nec just moved down the street to the other bar. they even had a shooting right next to the bar that was closed.

You need to blame the people not the gun. I don't know if you have been to D.C. but you'll have slums right next to exclusive neighborhoods. I mean literally across the street. We were driving down a main thoroughfare that was slum like. If you went over one block over it didn't look any different than the houses here in West Pittston which tend to be on the upscale side. I can't see trying to tell those people they can't have gun in their house to protect themselves when they are the ones that have live there.
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Re: SECOND AMENDMENT UPHELD!

PostBy: Richard S. On: Mon Jun 30, 2008 1:42 pm

BugsyR wrote:Allentown

http://www.cityrating.com/citycrime.asp ... n&state=PA

2003 didn't look good (compared to national averages)

http://allentown.areaconnect.com/crime1.htm

2006 wasn't good either


Where I live there was a rash of murders for about 2 years, something like 12 in the one year. They stepped up enforcement, crime watch etc and they went an entire year and 2 days without a murder last year. We have distinct problem here, we have a aging population with many senior citizens. Many of them live in "company houses", the kids don't want the house. They end up selling cheap and they usually end up being rented for cheap or get on the section 8 program. The riff-raff moves in and the neighborhoods slowly deteriorate. You can tell who is the long time resident you'll have a really nice house next to a pig sty....
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Re: SECOND AMENDMENT UPHELD!

PostBy: BugsyR On: Mon Jun 30, 2008 1:59 pm

Richard S. wrote:The riff-raff moves in and the neighborhoods slowly deteriorate. You can tell who is the long time resident you'll have a really nice house next to a pig sty....


Same thing is happening in my old home town. Funny thing is that the same neighborhoods that were somewhat undesirable in the 70's and 80's are even more undesirable today. Bad part is that the honest law abiding people that are still there are seeing their life long investment (homes) value going right down the crapper. I agree with you though about criminal on criminal gun crimes.
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Re: SECOND AMENDMENT UPHELD!

PostBy: pvolcko On: Tue Jul 01, 2008 2:42 am

stoker-man wrote:In Lehigh County, PA, which encompasses the city of Allentown, and probably in most parts of the state, getting a concealed weapon permit is as easy as going to the courthouse. You must not have a criminal record, 3 references, about $35 and they're good for 5 years. The only reason needed is "self-protection" and if you carry different weapons for different occasions, you don't even have to list any specific type of pistol carried.


I'm living in the wrong state. :)
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Re: SECOND AMENDMENT UPHELD!

PostBy: stoker-man On: Tue Jul 01, 2008 6:01 am

It's not just Allentown, it's the whole state of PA. It's law. Your initial application requires a check and in a week, you'll get your permit. After that, you are automatically renewed every 5 years, if you pay the fee at the courthouse, and don't have a change in your criminal record.

Philly was one area where there were restrictions on obtaining a permit, but I think recently, they were required to give out permits too.
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Re: SECOND AMENDMENT UPHELD!

PostBy: Devil505 On: Tue Jul 01, 2008 6:35 am

Just to show what happens in the big city:


Monday, June 25, 2007
Child shot, killed in Roxbury
full story:http://www.boston.com/news/globe/city_region/breaking_news/2007/06/child_shot_kill.html


Another shot last night...8 years old

I think you'll find most law enforcement types are tougher on gun availability than I am:

In Hartford, FBI Chief Says Colleges Could Feel Effect Of Gun Ruling
The Associated Press
3:37 PM EDT, June 30, 2008
Full story: http://www.courant.com/news/custom/topnews/hcu-ap-gunruling-0630,0,925902.story
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Re: SECOND AMENDMENT UPHELD!

PostBy: coal berner On: Tue Jul 01, 2008 11:43 am

stoker-man wrote:It's not just Allentown, it's the whole state of PA. It's law. Your initial application requires a check and in a week, you'll get your permit. After that, you are automatically renewed every 5 years, if you pay the fee at the courthouse, and don't have a change in your criminal record.

Philly was one area where there were restrictions on obtaining a permit, but I think recently, they were required to give out permits too.

The license to carry a firearm in PA Became a State Law in 1989 Before 89 each city town or village had there own laws
on carrying it was upto the chief of the first class city or sheriff of the county you live in Now the State Police issueds The
License to carry the sheriff does not do the background check anymore it is the state Police since 1998 The Sheriff will
handel the Paperwork But can not do the background check he has to send it to Harrisburg then they send it back to him
Before 1998 the sheriff did everything And here in Schuylkill count it would take 10 min for one now it will be 5 to 10 days
the law says They have upto 45 days before they have to issue one it never takes that long here But in the larger city like
Pitts or Philly it will but they have to it is your right and the law But they like to play games with the People If the Person
is not a criminal they have to give you one


http://www.psp.state.pa.us/psp/cwp/browse.asp?a=15&bc=0&c=70426
This link is broken, either the page no longer exists or there is some other issue like a typo.
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Re: SECOND AMENDMENT UPHELD!

PostBy: pvolcko On: Tue Jul 01, 2008 12:35 pm

From the boston story:
An 8-year-old boy was shot in the abdomen and killed late Sunday when three men walked up to the front door of his Roxbury home and began shooting, police said.


What gun law would have prevented this or any of the other tragic cases listed in this story? The guns used almost surely were illegally acquired and possessed, they certainly were used in an explicitly illegal manner (in all but one case in purposeful criminal acts by people without souls, one in what may have been a bone headed but unintentional illegal act). People who commit crimes like this have no respect for the law, community, life, or anything but their own screwed up values and personal desires. They will get their "gats", they will kill people, the only chance anyone in that dwelling had were for police to have caught the perps before they committed these crimes or for law abiding people around them to have their own guns and use them to defend against people like this. That is it. And still some of these kids would have died, because evil wins a lot more often than people like to admit.

As for the story about the Heller ruling making campus security tougher. Bull. Again, the person in the VT shooting acquired at least some of the guns he used illegally. He used multiple low to medium capacity mags. The Heller ruling doesn't prevent reasonable permit/licensing systems, reasonable mandatory instructional/education class requirements, etc. The laws have been improved since the VT case to get better mental health related information into the instant background check system and states are in the process of passing their own laws to match the federal law so they can comply. Law already allows for confiscation of weapons when a new mental or criminal adjudication is made that would invalidate a persons right to own them either temporarily or permanently. And Heller specifically upheld the right for states to create or authorize reasonable, traditionally recognized "gun free zones", such as government buildings and schools.

The story is crap, designed to evoke fear and dread for the supposedly inevitable wave of gun crime that is going to be unleashed by Heller and all the loosened gun controls. Never mind the fact that for 20+ years as states have been adopting right to carry laws and more liberalized gun control policies have seen either no change in their crime stats (Florida I think) or have seen different degrees of reduction (the rest). I think the one state that has seen no improvement in their crime stats was Florida, and that probably due to inflow of gang activity and the like in the same period, not due to any increase in the rate of permit holders using their guns in crimes. The fact that the state didn't see a marked increase in violent crime as the influx of gang and criminal activity occurred is very likely due in part to the increased presence of law abiding gun ownership and CCW issuance.

People who seek CCWs and lawful gun ownership are far more likely to use the gun in the prevention of a crime than to commit it. It is a net positive. Permit schemes are still constitutional and prudent (I just ask they be objectively administered and provide for timely issuance at reasonable cost). Background checks and laws to get removed from the "blacklist" have been improved with the blessing of all sides of the debate. Reasonable, traditional gun free zones can still exist (I would argue that colleges and universities are not a reasonable zone, but thats a debate for another day). It's all a net positive, but kids will still be killed by criminals with guns. Around 150 will die every year from accidental gun discharges (that covers cleaning accidents and poor gun handling accidents, children accidentally shooting each other, and parents accidentally killing the kids who they thought were intruders in the home). They'll also die by the hundreds each year in bathtub and washing bucket drowning accidents.
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Re: SECOND AMENDMENT UPHELD!

PostBy: Devil505 On: Tue Jul 01, 2008 12:56 pm

pvolcko wrote:What gun law would have prevented this or any of the other tragic cases listed in this story?


Probably none...... My point in posting those news clips was a response to Richard's post:...

"It's just as easy where I live, the shootings that do occur are either criminal on criminal violence that are usually transplants from the inner city or crimes of passion. A crime that involves a gun where the victim is truly innocent is very rare here, to tell you the truth off the top of my head I can't think of one in many years."....

To point out that different localities see a much different level of gun related violence & that, what is reasonable for Allentown, PA is not necessarily reasonable for Roxbury, Mass. Each locality must take it's own, distinct problems into account when drafting their own laws & no one law will fit everywhere.

An individual with a desire to possess firearms is not the only player "with a dog in this race".........citizens have a collective right of self-defense too!

This is never going to be a simple problem that lends itself to an easy, universal answer, no matter which side of the debate you fall on. My natural inclination (as a former law enforcement type) is a desire to see as few firearms as possible on the street. (To be honest, I would favor a law that excludes everyone from possessing any firearm unless that person is in law enforcement or.........was a former DEA Agent with a last name that begins with.........Oh...let's say "J" :lol: )
Last edited by Devil505 on Tue Jul 01, 2008 3:19 pm, edited 7 times in total.
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Re: SECOND AMENDMENT UPHELD!

PostBy: Devil505 On: Tue Jul 01, 2008 12:57 pm

ken wrote:i went to an auction saturday and pick up this baby. :D


Hmmmm....a bit tough to conceal though! :lol:
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Re: SECOND AMENDMENT UPHELD!

PostBy: stoker-man On: Tue Jul 01, 2008 8:49 pm

Coalberner, I renewed my license around 2005. I went to the courthouse in Allentown. No problem. I always go in a month early or so and have never let it lapse. Been licensed since the first year. You say '89. I had forgotten.
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Re: SECOND AMENDMENT UPHELD!

PostBy: gambler On: Tue Jul 01, 2008 10:08 pm

To be honest, I would favor a law that excludes everyone from possessing any firearm unless that person is in law enforcement


I will bet that all of the criminal types would abide by your law.
It would now make everyone an easy target for the criminal. They would not have to worry about being shot.
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Re: SECOND AMENDMENT UPHELD!

PostBy: pvolcko On: Tue Jul 01, 2008 11:48 pm

Devil5052 wrote:My natural inclination (as a former law enforcement type) is a desire to see as few firearms as possible on the street. (To be honest, I would favor a law that excludes everyone from possessing any firearm unless that person is in law enforcement or.........was a former DEA Agent with a last name that begins with.........Oh...let's say "J" :lol: )


We have very different ideas of what is reasonable or ideal. If it were possible to take all thug's guns entirely, they'd still have clubs, arrows, slings, knifes, swords and any manner of other deadly weapon. A firearm is the great equalizer between evil and good when they come into violent conflict. If all criminals could be eliminated, I'd still be against this idea because the the ultimate armed thug of history is government gone awry, and our government and others aren't going away. Government must fear the people, it must remain subservient to the people. This is ensured, in the final measure, by an armed citizenry.

Gun control laws should be about limiting criminal access to guns and creating an environment where criminals are less able to commit violent crime (with guns or by other means). However, many gun control laws and policies are ineffective. Some are actually silly. Some are actually net negatives, restricting liberty and self defense rights to varying degrees, resulting in no curtailment of crime or even contributing to an environment of increased violent criminal activity. The characteristics these bad laws all share is a false presumption that criminal gun use and possession are significantly impacted by administrative, process, and access laws manifestly designed to make gun ownership more time consuming, more expensive, more exposed to criminal and civil liabilities, etc. for those that wish to exercise their right legally and in legal ways. Criminals don't care, they aren't dissuaded at all. If anything they are emboldened by the notion of a less armed, less aware, less ready society. At their core, these laws betray a belief that guns are bad and only result in bad things, and that the people that want them should not have them and must themselves be a little bit bad too (or at least paranoid). There are people in control in many states with duped (though well meaning) voting publics supporting them that are bent on not only unreasonable, unconstitutional, ineffective curtailment of this vital civil liberty, but also making out those that oppose them to be "gun nuts" whom should be derided and browbeaten into submission. The "sick culture" of traditional gun rights and lawful use are be stamped out.

There are good, reasonable, effective gun control laws on the books and there are some more yet to be discovered and implemented, as the recent background check database expansion law demonstrates. When they come up I'll support them, but in the mean time I'm going to advocate for removing the bad laws (most specifically here in New York state, but around the country by what means I can). I believe firmly they are creating a net negative effect on public safety and were born of either faulty logic (that has been repeatedly demonstrated in many other states and cities to be unfounded) or were pushed on an unsuspecting public by those with ulterior motives. In either case, they are a totally unjustifiable restraint of individual freedom at this point.

Good night, Devil. Fare thee well, but may your desire on this point meet a great wall of opposition which will not be broken. :)
pvolcko