Car Dealer Rip Off

Good job, Freddy.

PA goes by 2/32 on riveted and 1/32 on bonded for passing. Is it 2MM or 2/32 in Maine?

stoker-man wrote:Is it 2MM or 2/32 in Maine?

I'm not sure, which is OK, but THEY're not sure! The mechanic said "less than 2mm is failing". The manager said "No, it's less than one MM to flunk". One mm is just over 1/32 so I'll venture a guess that 1/32" for bonded.

Just today a friend suggested a local guy that is honest. It happens I know the guy, went to high school with him. Not only that, he just moved his shop and is now 1/2 mile away from me!

I'm starting to think the local corner guy might be a better risk. They care about their reputation. The dealer dosn't care as "they are the dealer".

A few years back, Consumer Reports did some analysis of repair shops. As I recall, they found some less-than-fully-competent service at smaller shops, but surprisingly little dishonesty. The dealer has a captive audience, in a sense, whereas the little guy has only his reputation. A guy I worked with came from a small town where his father sold used cars. His saying was, "There's no such thing as a 30-day warranty in Norridgewock". Meaning, if the car was defective when I sold it, and the buyer doesn't complain for 90 days, I damned well better fix it anyway at my cost, or word will get around.

chemung wrote:

I had a 1962 Vette. I left my car overnight for a brake job the next day (all drum brakes). They called me and said I needed everything including the backing plates and because it was a Vette it was special order parts and would cost more $$$.

That's pretty funny, my brother had a '62 'Vette. When he wanted to rebuild the front end he took an entire '52 Chevy front end and rebuilt it and replaced the 'Vette's front end with it. Every part in it is the same piece that came in '49-'54 Chevy cars. Special order my butt.

I am an ASE certified master tech with 15+ years experience. I completely got out of the automotive repair business because the whole industry is corrupt. Cars today (made after about 2000) are made to be maintenance free and last for hundreds of thousands of miles with minimal maintenance required. The old days of needing a tune-up every 15,000 miles is gone. So are the profits which come from a steady stream of legitimate repairs. So the industry figured out a plan: LOF due every 3,000 miles with a free inspection, then a laundry list of "preventative maintenance" items which are basically fixing things that aren't broken for the sake of profit. Mechanics at the dealer and all of the chain shops are all paid the same way: flat rate. That means for every hour billed the mechanic gets paid his hourly wage, regardless of how long he is on the clock for. Notice I didn't say "commission" because 20/20 ruined that gig.

Here's the scenario pretty much played out in every chain shop or dealership every day in every town across the country: Joe mechanic has a family to feed and has had a couple days filled with non-paying come-backs from the other mechanics or some BS warranty work that didn't pay hardly anything. Joe has been in the shop for 30 hours and has only billed 10 hours, say he makes $20 an hour his family isn't going to be happy with a $200 paycheck minus taxes, child support, and $100 to the Snap-On dealer. Today is better, he gets an oil change and free inspection to do on a car with 80,000 miles. He shops the car for all it's worth and writes himself a paycheck for 40 hours for which he only has to do about 8 hours of work. To accomplish this goal he writes up problems that overlap and the service manager charges separate labor for each operation according to the book. For example: water pump, R&R, 3.4 hours. Timing belt, R&R, 2.9 hours, Serpentine belt, R&R, .8 hours. Crankshaft seal, R&R, 3.2 hours. Camshaft seal R&R, 3.1 hours. So you see how a job that should fairly pay about 4 hours (and take a competent mechanic about 3) turns into a 12 hour labor bill. Same for tune-up items, brakes, suspension, and the worst of all are the preventative maintenance items which can be 5 or 6 hours of basically nothing. It wasn't broke before, the customer sure as hell isn't going to complain when it still isn't broke. Now can you blame the mechanic who is sent to school to find these potential problems before they turn into disaster? Or maybe the store manager who says any tech not making at least 45 hours in a 40 hour week gets *censored* canned? Or maybe the service manager who is paid a token salary plus a hefty "bonus" based on profit compared to previous months or weeks, and penalized next month's bonus if he is under this month. The mechanic is trained by the factories to ensure product sales and job security. He pops the hood for an inspection and squeezes the radiator hose. Guess where the hose will bubble up in a year or so? That's a gravy job of belts, hoses, radiator, freeze plugs, you name it whatever the customer will bear that's what he'll soak him for. It came in leaking and goes out not leaking, any money is well spent according to the customer. The mechanic did him a favor and prevented an extremely expensive head gasket failure. Next up is a fine Japanese car with nothing wrong except needing an oil change. Some recommendations and now he takes out the factory triple platinum spark plugs at 30k miles and puts in $0.49 Autolite plugs. Not bad, 2 hours tune up labor to screw in a few spark plugs. Next month he gets to do a diagnostic test on the same car for hard starting and poor gas mileage. Needs new Oxygen sensors, air filter, throttle body service, decarbonization job, valve tappet check/adjustment, and a set of platinum plugs because "the oxygen sensor ruined the old ones and the original ones". Problem is the customer forgot that the reason he needed that first tune up in the first place was due to a mechanics recommendation. The customer however, leaves happy again. His car runs good again, just as he remembers. Perfect! and $1200 for the shop in pure stolen money called profit. A no start condition results in changing the coil, module, fuel pump, crank sensor, timing belt, mass air meter, and oh yea a new ground wire to the computer which got pinched in the air cleaner box a few weeks back at the fast lube place. That tidbit gets hidden as "shop supplies".

Fixing the broken machine is what I signed up to do when I went to tech school, I learned quickly that raping customers is what the industry demands. I worked for many small shops who were honest and every single one of those places are out of business today because they couldn't keep the lights on and the place insured by fixing broken cars at a reasonable price. I worked at dealers and a couple national chains until my soul felt like it was rotting away, it's sad but the only way not to get ripped off is to personally know a mechanic who will do careful honest work on the side or do it yourself.

coaledsweat wrote

That's pretty funny, my brother had a '62 'Vette. When he wanted to rebuild the front end he took an entire '52 Chevy front end and rebuilt it and replaced the 'Vette's front end with it. Every part in it is the same piece that came in '49-'54 Chevy cars. Special order my butt.

Ya, I know what you mean. I had a 1958 Impala when I got out of high school. It had a standard three speed. I blew the synchronizer on the main shaft. Went to the parts store and got one. The package said it fit 1937 to 1963.

new thread.

e.alleg wrote:I am an ASE certified master tech with 15+ years experience. I completely got out of the automotive repair business because the whole industry is corrupt. ....... it's sad but the only way not to get ripped off is to personally know a mechanic who will do careful honest work on the side or do it yourself.

Didn't want to quote the whole post but I'll second the whole thing!

I'm no mater tech, but I did enough time(which wasn't much) at a national chain to know I couldn't live with myself operating like they did.

Sounds to me like maybe we ought to start calling these places stealerships instead of dealerships

That's what they are, in essence.

I can't even tell you how many shoddy repairs & screwups I've seen just bringing my truck in for WARRANTY work. 5 trips to the dealer for brake pulsation that they can't seem to fix. Then their lot tech wipes out the whole side of my truck, & it spends 3 days in the body shop. Simple squeaks & rattles they couldn't fix either. I had to fix it myself. To hell with the warranty. What good is it?

Front end alignments are something I prefer done on a machine, because I can spend 8 hours with a string & tape measure, & still second guess myself after a 5 mile drive. I've had vehicles come back with sockets still on the control arm bolts , loose control arm bolts, loose tie-rod pinch clamps, crooked steering wheels, etc. Problem is, people are in an all-fire hurry to get the job done, and quality suffers. Time is money in the business as E. said. He told it like it is. This is the reason I stay busy with no advertisement. People know when it leaves here it's done right. I can count on 1 finger the number of comebacks I've had in 11 years. And I don't try to screw people. I'm honest, so I'll never be rich.

theo wrote:Sounds to me like maybe we ought to start calling these places stealerships instead of dealerships

I read recently that the typical new car dealer makes 77 percent of profits from service. Not from selling new cars, not from selling used cars. From service. To "service" a woman means, well, you know.... Which explains why you feel "serviced" when you leave the stealership.

rberq wrote:

theo wrote:Sounds to me like maybe we ought to start calling these places stealerships instead of dealerships

I read recently that the typical new car dealer makes 77 percent of profits from service. Not from selling new cars, not from selling used cars. From service. To "service" a woman means, well, you know.... Which explains why you feel "serviced" when you leave the stealership.

My father was in car sales for 20 years. I can confirm that most of their profit comes from the garage bay, not the sales floor.

Listen to the car ads for "factory to dealer incentives". These are usually "hold back" and sometimes take the form of cash, but usually a certain amount of "free" parts. So if they charge you $100 for a part, they likely didn't pay anything for it due to the sale of a new car.

Sometimes hold back is advertising time so if you see a slickly produced high buck TV commercial, with the local stealership name tacked on the end, that was part of their hold back deal.

How a dealership is run is a Byzantine exercise.

With the economy the way it is, these dealerships should know that their bread and butter is coming out of their service departments and that to stay in business you NEED repeat customers, especially in a small town. There is a local dealership here that everyone knows you can get a better deal almost anywhere but their service department has such a great reputation that local folks are not afraid to spend a bit more for the initial purchase. I've been building and fixing computers on the side for almost 19 years in the small town I live in. I've even tried to get out of the business since it can become very consuming and I am getting kinda burned out. In a small town reputation is everything and I have two simple principles that I try to follow when it comes to providing honest people honest service. When it comes to charging by the hour, charge the amount of time it SHOULD take to fix it, not what it actually takes. With computers, there is always some new new virus, spyware or malware out there that may take you a couple hours to figure out how to clean it the first time, but usually the next time you see it, it only takes a couple minutes to fix. I have to charge a minimum amount even for a quick job so you get your money in the end. I may spend 2 hours fixing the first one and only get $30 but then when the next one comes in I spend 15 minutes on it and get $30 for it. Both cases the customer is very happy. My other principle is simple; I would rather make $100 off you 10 times than $300 once.