JUst what we need:

So we are really in complete agreement Paul......The "Tax Expert" (probably Phil Graham, who thinks we're all "Whiners") quoted in Greg's post is a lying sack of you know what!

Please, don't do that. If I agree with your statements and characterizations I'll let you know. I attempted to provide an honest take on what I've read or heard and what I haven't. Some of the points, to my personal knowledge are true and in my opinion fair, others I haven't come across personally but I am not ready to say they are lies or falsehoods. Lack of personal knowledge, yours or mine, is not proof of the negative.

Only one seemed to be "outlandish" for him to have made either explicit or implict statements of support for; the 40% dividend tax. However, if dividends are considered cap gains (29%) and taxable additionally as a special type of income I can see how it would be rather easy to arrive at that number through his own statements (probably without him even realizing the sum total of what he was saying). Other examples of ridiculously high tax rates and special income types: salary bonuses are taxed at a similarly ridiculous rate; the inheritance tax was a pretty high rate if I remember right; not too long ago income tax on the higher brackets was something like 70% or more. Simply put, I do not put it past Mr. Obama to have said it, despite it being an insane thing to support.

pvolcko wrote: So we are really in complete agreement Paul......The "Tax Expert" (probably Phil Graham, who thinks we're all "Whiners") quoted in Greg's post is a lying sack of you know what!



Please, don't do that. If I agree with your statements and characterizations I'll let you know.

You know that I was just tweaking you a bit Paul as we rarely, if ever agree on anything political . Just good natured jabbing!
(after all I do have my reputation as the to keep up!)

Devil5052 wrote:Always just amazes me that Republican hypocrites, who have been living off us taxpayers for most or all of their lives (in terms of their health care)....

Sorry...but then again....thank you for paying your taxes!




Oh yeah, by the way. I believe all the immediate family members of all the deceased liberal democrat service members that also receive their health care from government funded health benefits would probably thank you also for paying your taxes. See it's a benefit they receive from being an immediate family member of a person who volunteered to put their life on the line for their fellow tax paying Americans.
I guess the democrat that doesn't believe in social medicine is also a hypocrite then??

BugsyR wrote:See it's a benefit they receive from being an immediate family member of a person who volunteered to put their life on the line for their fellow tax paying Americans.

.

Not sure if I follow your point Mike but I agree with your above statement & feel that these benefits should be available to all U.S. taxpayers, not just the ones who risk their life for us. The entire US military & all of the Congress & White House already have "socialized" medicine. & yet they (Congressmen) only seem to scream when all the other taxpayers want what they have!



Opinion:

The very idea of health care for profit really makes no sense to me when the incentive/profit motive of private health insurance companies means that they have a vested interest in paying for as little health care as they can get away with~! (Days in the hospital have been superseded with "Day Surgery" which will undoubtedly give way ( if the private HMO's get their way) to "Drive-Up Surgery" where you will order a gall bladder operation at the first window & then drive to the next window for the procedure ....done in your car.... But.....on a positive note.....at least you'll get a large order of "Fries" with your surgical procedure!!

There are some things that are just better handled by legitimate government (taxpayer) funding & control.

(would you want fire departments privatized on a "pay as your burn" basis?
How about just having a private, "for profit" police force?)

So the only solutions offered is a choice between a tax and spend democrat and a tax tax tax republican? They are both bad choices and we really need a way to just say NO

Always just amazes me that Republican hypocrites, who have been living off us taxpayers for most or all of their lives (in terms of their health care) scream "Socialism" when we taxpayers want the same thing they have for ourselves! What the hell....We are paying for it right??

Not sure if I follow your point Mike...

My point is, I was being sarcastic about your previous post where you single out the Republicans again...once again calling them names (hypocrites)...but you left out the Democrats. I have liberal Democrat friends that don't believe in socialized medicine...just as I don't like or believe in some Republican views. Said friends are retired military also, recieving health care from government funds so basically you are also calling my Liberal Democratic friends hypocrites also. Then I added more sarcasm that points to a direction that if someone reads your post it can be percieved that all and any surviving members of a combat deceased service member who is using their benefits for health care can be percieved as a hypocrite if they do not believe in your views of socialized medicine. (I see both the pros and cons of socialized medicine personally but I don't fully agree with it myself....so therefore I fall under your generalized comment about Republican Hypocrites. )
Point 2....are you saying that every single Congressional Democrat is screaming for Socialized medicine? If not....why aren't they considered hypocrites in your post?
Point 3...I am registered Republican. I have lived off us tax payers for most of my life like many other servicemembers. I am against socialized medicine because I want the rest of my family (mother(D), brothers(R), sisters(D) very liberal by the way...don't know where they got it from...probably Mom) and In-laws(R) to have the FREEDOM to choose where they recieve their health care. As for the far left liberal Democrats that like to complain about why can't everyone have socialized medicine like the military...you could if you're young enough...or you could have when you were young enough....all you had to do or have to do is go and raise your right hand and repeat after me...."I ... State your name .... Do solemnly swear..."

By the way...although I am military retired I still have to pay for my health care. It's good but I still pay co-pays, prescriptions, etc. I don't pay monthly, only when I have to find help...and then I am limited to whoever accepts my type of insurance (TriCare).....the nice thing for me is that I have a Freedom to choose who I want to care for me and my family(as long as they accept TriCare). Oh yeah...although my military retirement comes from the US Tax payer (Government)...the US Government still takes some back in form of Federal Income Tax....so in a round about way....my military retirement is taxed in order for the US Government to give me and my fellow service members retirement benefits such as health care. I am fortunate to survive long enough to enjoy those benefits provided by my tax dollars.

Hey Richard,, [Devil 5052] do you think Gambler and Matthaus would have had equally fast, high quality, and nearly immediate care for their Tumors and Cancers in Canada?? I know for sure, from family friends that in Canada,, both of our forum friends would still be waiting for treatment,, and Matt would for sure be blind in at least one eye, with the other one soon to follow.. [ I also have MD friends in Canada]..

So in your rabid, foaming at the mouth hatred for all that is current and or republican,, do you wish ill health and blindness upon our friends??? That is the REAL bottom line,,,

I think you get up each morning and instead of a bowl of bran flakes, you eat a bowl of 'Democrat Socialist Nuggets' [condensed Media crap mixed with Democratic Socialist BS].. and I think someone switches your 'One A Day' vitamins for extra strength Conspiracy Pills..

And Buddy,,, I do HONESTLY believe that your heart condition would improve drasticly if you would just forget about the election,, you certainly aren't converting anyone on this site... I think you are outnumbered about 300-1. And getting ill and needing medication because of all the self-imposed stress you are under is NOT good for ya !! Seriously !!

Greg L.

LsFarm wrote:So in your rabid, foaming at the mouth hatred for all that is current and or republican,, do you wish ill health and blindness upon our friends??? That is the REAL bottom line,,,

LsFarm wrote:I think you get up each morning and instead of a bowl of bran flakes, you eat a bowl of 'Democrat Socialist Nuggets' [condensed Media crap mixed with Democratic Socialist BS].. and I think someone switches your 'One A Day' vitamins for extra strength Conspiracy Pills..

LsFarm wrote:And Buddy,,, I do HONESTLY believe that your heart condition would improve drasticly if you would just forget about the election,, you certainly aren't converting anyone on this site... I think you are outnumbered about 300-1. And getting ill and needing medication because of all the self-imposed stress you are under is NOT good for ya !! Seriously !!

Sorry you find it necessary & acceptable to make a personal attack Greg.

This: ....."do you wish ill health and blindness upon our friends??? That is the REAL bottom line,,"..... is just totally uncalled for!

I suggest your reread this post from Matthaus that appeared on your thread: Another Forum member needs our Prayers.



...."I can honestly say that this was one of the better experiences in my life, it reminded me of the precious gift we are given and that even when things appear to not be going your way... trust me they are going the way they should. We all should cherish this brotherhood and remember that when it's all put in perspective we all have a choice to treat our fellow forum members with gratitude and respect or we can squabble fuss and fight over ultimately meaningless things that don't even come close to being important in the overall scheme of things. You have further helped to nurture a renewed effort on my part to be as grateful and respectful as I can be with my brothers and sisters on this forum.... Thank you!!!!!!

I don't think this was a personal attack.. more of a different viewpoint..I certainly didn't mean it to be personal except for my suggestion about letting it go for your health's sake.

But the problem with the socialist national healthcare systems is highlighted by our forum member's personal experiences.. I don't wish a national health care system upon my worst enemy... they just don't work.. maybe my example was too blunt and potentially painfull..

Sorry if you took this as a personal attack.. but I do see you getting so worked up over the election, the Republicans. GWB, and you have this heart problem.. I really do see one aggravating the other.. I don't agree with your politics,, but I DO care about you and your health.

Less stress= better health... [now why do I work so much and have so much stress in MY life, I can't take my own advice.]

Greg L

LsFarm wrote:I don't think this was a personal attack.. more of a different viewpoint..I certainly didn't mean it to be personal except for my suggestion about letting it go for your health's sake.

OK Greg.....I'll accept your statement about not intending to voice a personal attack, but it's kinda difficult to read ..." in your rabid, foaming at the mouth hatred for all that is current and or republican".... as impersonal.



Accepting the fact that we are both human beings, capable of & even given to "enthusiastically" presenting our opinions from time to time, let's move on.

My heart problem is known as Atrial Fibrillation & my doc has assured me that this condition, which has been resolved, is neither brought on by or aggrivated by stress. It is simply an electrical problem & below is a list of various possible causes:


From a medical journal:

Causes

While in many cases, the cause of Atrial Fibrillation is unknown, there are a number of conditions that can lead to AF, including:

* Chronic lung conditions: Individuals with emphysema, asthma, pulmonary blood clots are at greater risk for developing AF.
* Coronary artery disease (CAD): A condition in which the arteries that supply blood to the heart become constricted and/or clogged.
* Excessive alcohol use: Excessive alcohol use acts as a toxin on the heart and may lead to AF.
* Exposure to heart stimulants: Over-the-counter (OTC) medications, alcohol, caffeine and tobacco increase heart rate and can lead to AF.
* Family history: AF tends to run in families. A person who has a parent with AF has an increased risk of developing it.
* Having heart surgery: AF also occurs in as many as 50 percent of patients undergoing cardiac operations.
* Heart Failure: A condition in which the heart’s main pumping chamber does not pump blood normally. An estimated 25 percent of heart failure patients also have AF.
* Hypertension: High blood pressure may directly cause Atrial Fibrillation, in addition to other conditions that can cause AF, such as coronary artery disease. Individually, AF and hypertension are risk factors for stroke. When both are present, the risk factor for stroke increases greatly.
* Inflammation of the heart: Pericarditis, a condition in which the tissue that surrounds the heart (pericardium) becomes inflamed, can irritate the atria and lead to AF.
* Pulmonary disease: A condition in which a blood clot develops in the legs and travels to the lungs. This can sometimes trigger AF.
* Structural heart defects: Abnormalities in the heart’s structure are the most common cause of AF. In addition, damage to the heart valves can cause the atria to enlarge and lead to AF.
* Thyroid disease: A condition in which thyroid hormones are elevated due to an overactive thyroid gland. This can increase the risk of AF.
* Viral infection: In rare instances, viral infections can weaken the heart structure and lead to AF.



Family History would seem to be the culprit in my case but I do appreciate your concern, which I know from our many PM's is genuine.





With regard to this statement

LsFarm wrote:But the problem with the socialist national healthcare systems is highlighted by our forum member's personal experiences.. I don't wish a national health care system upon my worst enemy... they just don't work.

This system has worked fine for our Armed Forces, Congress & White House for over 200 years & works very well in many other democracies on this planet, whose health care is rated higher than ours in this country.

LsFarm wrote:Sorry if you took this as a personal attack.. but I do see you getting so worked up over the election, the Republicans. GWB, and you have this heart problem.. I really do see one aggravating the other.. I don't agree with your politics,, but I DO care about you and your health.

Apology accepted & I think it's important for informed, sincere, well intentioned citizens to be able to express their opinions in any democracy & the fact that we disagree politically only makes for a livelier, more enjoyable debate. (it would be pretty boring if our posts read like this: "You are so right Greg"....followed by...."No, you are more right than I am Dick!")
The numbers of forum members we "Win Over" with our arguments is not the point. If just one of our arguments makes another member think over his position or possibly reevaluate his/her stance on a particular issue, the debate has achieved a purpose.
My point is that we should try to keep things in perspective & avoid unnecessary personal attacks which always just detracts from the debate.


We are all here, first & foremost because we like to assist each other with our coal heating questions & problems & the fact that we additionally pass the down-time by engaging in (sometimes lively) "Off Topic" discussions only adds to the "Family" feeling here.

Quote:

* Hypertension: High blood pressure may directly cause Atrial Fibrillation, in addition to other conditions that can cause AF, such as coronary artery disease. Individually, AF and hypertension are risk factors for stroke. When both are present, the risk factor for stroke increases greatly

Hypertension, is directly related to stress.. I can be all mellowed out,, have blood pressure of 115/75 and read one of your anti Bush and everything Republican' posts and my BP soars to 140/95.. right up near 'stroke country' .. Or I listen to some inane political commercial.. and I know my BP soars.. I should go on medication untill the election is over..

But... that aside.. If I were to describe myself, I would have to say that I'm a rabid, foaming at the mouth conservative, who believes that the Democratic party is the sole cause of the decline of our great nation, the delcine started with LBJ and his 'Great Society' ['society' is the root word of Socialism]. With his financing of the Vietnam war, and the 'Great Society' our fate as a great capitalist nation was doomed.. Our nation continues to suffer under ever-increasing taxes funding social programs, and the Socialist Democrats continue to pander to the non-working, non-taxpaying, ever increasing population..

So you see, I'm just on the other side of the line,, I just don't believe in conspriacies.. I think that all the politians are nothing but self serving blood suckers.. sucking all the life-blood out of our great country...

Just look at the dire mess we are in over oil and energy,, and the Democratic congress derailed an attempt to get our country heading towards energy independance.. and politics got in the way again,, This is what makes me hate all politians.. JUST do your job.. don't play politics..

Anyway.. back out to the shop.. I've got to earn some more money to pay my property taxes..

Greg L

.

LsFarm wrote:I can be all mellowed out,, have blood pressure of 115/75 and read one of your anti Bush and everything Republican' posts and my BP soars to 140/95.. right up near 'stroke country' .

See.....so that just proves that my arguments are serving some purpose!

LsFarm wrote:If I were to describe myself, I would have to say that I'm a rabid, foaming at the mouth conservative,

Alright!! We finally find something we can agree on!!

LsFarm wrote:So you see, I'm just on the other side of the line,

Agreed Greg............I'm on the correct, intelligent & sensible side of that line & you are just on the wrong side !





One thing I think we both must be forum experts on is "STRESS".

I think being in control of a hurtling piece of machinery, traveling near the speed of sound at 30,000 ft, where your life can be ended by simply making the wrong "Split Second" decision


OR


Working undercover, in the midst of a ruthless drug cartel where a wrong decision (or even "word") can end your life pretty quickly, equally qualifies us both as experts on stress!




Compared to our real life experiences, this forum's stresses should be pretty manageable for both of us!

LsFarm wrote:But the problem with the socialist national health care systems is highlighted by our forum member's personal experiences.. I don't wish a national health care system upon my worst enemy... they just don't work.

At the risk of beating a dead horse (something I am prone to do ) The World Health Organization rates the United States
37th in quality of our health care system & the vast majority of the countries rated well above us are democracies which have national health care systems. (some call Socialized Medicine) We rank just below Costa Rica but just above Slovenia & Cuba.........which, for the richest country in the world, should be a real embarrassment!

http://www.photius.com/rankings/healthranks.html

I point this out, not to denigrate our country (as some will undoubtedly accuse me of doing) but because I love my country & simply feel that we need to rethink our priorities when it comes to what we spend our tax dollars on.

Good morning Dick,, the problem with national health care systems is that everyone needs to pay for it.. everyone.. there can no longer be a welfare class that has 6-10 children per mother, with 6-10 different fathers none of which work. The mother and her tribe will use a disproportionant amont of health care, with nobody but you and I paying for it...This embarassment in our society dooms any national health system from the very start.

I suggest that those 36 countries that rank higher than ours are small countries with a more closely knit society where health care is known to be a great privalege, not an expectation by the non working.

With a national health care system, I'd be paying my taxes, and for myself and how many others??? right now I pay for myself, only. When I was flying to Germany all the time, I was currious how their social medicine system worked.. they paid for it,, and paid big time.. between the national health care system, their government sponsored retirement [much more $$ than our Social Insecurity] and the other many social programs.. the guys I spoke with only took home about 35% of their pay.. and they still had huge sales tax to pay..

Canada is similar,, take home is ~40-45% and they have huge addtional taxes to pay on any purchase...

This just isn't the way I want to live,, taxed to death literally.. taxed into an early grave..

Greg.