About to burn... baro for an AA?? Question!

About to burn... baro for an AA?? Question!

PostBy: pret On: Fri Jul 25, 2008 2:42 pm

I'm about to light'r up... but I have a few questions before I do.

1. I'm a little concerned about having a baro installed on an AA - 130. I don't have coal in it yet, but I can run it. As it runs, I can feel some air blow out of the baro. I would think that this is a CO2 issue, is it not? I actually afraid to light it - excited and scared as well... kind of like taking that turn when you know you're going to fast - the road is wet... heart is pumping... but the only thing you can think of is - can I make it?? Is this okay? It's a Field Controls Company B-34 Automatic draft unit (see pic). Did I buy the wrong thing? :roll:

2. I measured the flu that I'm hooking the AA up to and it is an 8" flu- diameter from outside edge - so I figured I'd have to go from a 5" pipe to a 6" reducer and then from a 6" reducer to an 8" reducer. The 8" reducer fits around the outer edge of the flu - I'm afraid that I messed that up too. See the pic. I'm wondering if the 6" reducer would have fit into the flue, and then I'd use some type of gasket material to seal the joint.

3. I don't have any pea coal yet... but I do have about 120 lbs of rice coal that a buddy gave me to get-r-going. Is that a bad idea... using rice in an AA. I'm was planning to use it to heat my DHW - basically to work the bugs out before the cold sets in. I'd like to head up to Superior Coal to get a couple tons - but don't know when I'll get there - hopefully next week.

4. Just wanted to mention that I'll have a two small portable coal bins in the garage that I hope to be able to dump into a window well in the garage, piping it down to the 55 gallon drum you see in the third picture. The 6" pvc pipe is coming from the garage. The fourth pic is the inside of the window well in the garage.

Thanks for the help guys... now that the time is here... I feel as if I'm a little boy wielding a flame thrower about to torch everything I love dear... a bit extreme - but I do feel a bit timid.

Pret
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Pic of the Auto draft control
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Pic of the pipe attached to the flu - nothing really holding it there. Just slides right over the flu. Not a tight seal.
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stove pipe running between my hot water pipes - just adding to the efficiency!
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On the garage end of my gravity fed system that will feed coal down into the basement into the 55 gallon drum seen in the pics above. Most everything is sealed - I'm curious how much dust I'm going to get...
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pret
 

Re: About to burn... baro for an AA?? Question!

PostBy: Rob R. On: Fri Jul 25, 2008 3:58 pm

Pret, I think you will need to change something with that thimble. One good puff-back from that AA and it could pop right off. What is the ID of that thimble? Would a piece of 7" fit inside with some furnace cement to hold it in place?

As for the baro, the air you are trying to blow up the pipe and chimney is probably colder than the outside air, so it won't draft at all.
Rob R.
 
Stoker Coal Boiler: EFM DF520
Hand Fed Coal Stove: Hitzer 50-93
Coal Size/Type: Lehigh Rice
Other Heating: Dad's 1953 EFM Highboy

Re: About to burn... baro for an AA?? Question!

PostBy: LsFarm On: Fri Jul 25, 2008 4:44 pm

Hi Pret,, if you read your AA install manual, it recommends instaling the baro as far away from the boiler as possible.. so I'd install it right at the thimble.. As Mark mentioned, your chimney has no real draft right now.. once you have a fire in the boiler it will draft, and you will have only the smallest bit of dust out of the the baro for a second, before the draft increases..

Are you running the combustion fan right now with nothing in the firebox, or on the grate??? you have unresticted inlet to the combustion fan.. Once you have the grate and firebox full of ash and coal, you will have a some restriction to the inlet of the fan, and this will reduce the amount of air being forced up the flue.

I would not try rice in the boiler,, go buy a few bags of pea. rice is way too small, and will just make getting started more difficult..

Did you provide an outside air source to the boiler room?? this will help with the natural draft and reduce fly ass coming out of the baro on startup.

The install looks really nice.. good work !!

Greg L
LsFarm
 
Stoker Coal Boiler: Axeman Anderson 260
Hand Fed Coal Boiler: Self-built 'Big Bertha' SS Boiler
Baseburners & Antiques: Keystone 11, Art Garland


Re: About to burn... baro for an AA?? Question!

PostBy: Freddy On: Fri Jul 25, 2008 6:27 pm

Yup, wouldn't try rice size.

The damper wants to go as close to the chimney as possible and use a special "T". If your manual doesn't show the "T" ask me & I'll scan a pic of it. I've never seen one, it looks like a home made job to me. In it, the stove pipe drops a bit in size goes about halfway into the barometric damper. Like, if you looked into the damper, you'd see half a stove pipe.
Freddy
 
Stoker Coal Boiler: Axeman Anderson 130 (pea)
Hot Air Coal Stoker Stove: Reading piece o' junk in the barn (rice)
Coal Size/Type: Pea size, Superior, deep mined

Re: About to burn... baro for an AA?? Question!

PostBy: CapeCoaler On: Fri Jul 25, 2008 6:44 pm

I used the RC model http://www.fieldcontrols.com/draftcontrol.php scroll down to see install locations and sizing.
Poke around the site they have lots of info.
Your model http://www.fieldcontrols.com/pdfs/46001000.PDF looks a little lighter duty and the not 'CSA for solid fuels' reinforces my belief that you should upgrade to the RC.
I would install on the horizontal run about two feet off the thimble.
I would run the pipe inside the clay and fill gap with stove/furnace cement comes in a cartridge size
http://www.rutland.com/productinfo.php?product_id=31
This link is broken, either the page no longer exists or there is some other issue like a typo.

I do like this for sealing pipe

http://www.rutland.com/productinfo.php?product_id=29
This link is broken, either the page no longer exists or there is some other issue like a typo.

What size PVC did you use? Are you putting a small bin over the well?
The first few bags might blow some dust out the auger hole in the drum.
My other question is if the drum in the basement will burp after the first few bags of coal covers the auger hole. If you get a slug of coal in the pipe and the then compressed air must go somewhere.
CapeCoaler
 
Stoker Coal Boiler: want AA130
Hand Fed Coal Stove: DS Machine BS#4, Harman MKII, Hitzer 503,...
Coal Size/Type: Pea/Nut/Stove

Re: About to burn... baro for an AA?? Question!

PostBy: LsFarm On: Fri Jul 25, 2008 8:33 pm

The inside of the AA auger is always open.. I can't see the drum getting air compressed in it.. coal dust may come out around the auger untill the coal covers the auger,, but that would be it..

Nice job pret..

Greg L

.
LsFarm
 
Stoker Coal Boiler: Axeman Anderson 260
Hand Fed Coal Boiler: Self-built 'Big Bertha' SS Boiler
Baseburners & Antiques: Keystone 11, Art Garland

Re: About to burn... baro for an AA?? Question!

PostBy: pret On: Fri Jul 25, 2008 9:17 pm

Thank you.... thank you.... THANK YOU! It didn't feel right - the baro being so close to the boiler - but that's what the instructions said that came with the baro... and the thimble is all wrong - like a couple of you said... I feel MUCH better with your comments and direction.
pret
 

Re: About to burn... baro for an AA?? Question!

PostBy: pret On: Sat Jul 26, 2008 2:45 pm

I changed the location of the baro... just used what I had - I didn't want to wait for another in the mail... I want to get this baby burn'n!

Greg... you don't have a problem with CO2 venting out of the baro when the blower is running because your 260 is in an out-building... anybody have a problem with exaust blowing into the house through the baro when their blower is running? Should I not be concerned? Greg you said that the coal and ash in a burning AA will restrict the amount of air moving up the pipe... so maybe it will not be an issue then.

Anybody have simple plans (or specs for constructing one) for building something to measure draft? I saw something simple with water, tubing, and some measurements on the tubing some time ago... but not sure where I saw it.

I have another question as well. I have the power coming into the boiler through a water high limit switch (Honeywell aquastat L6006A). Then it goes into a Honeywell triple aquastat relay type L8024K, which is controlling the operation of the boiler. I have the thermostats on the house hooked into a taco relay board on the wall so that will control the circulators (two zones - one for the water to hot air exchanger in the air handler and one for the baseboard installed in the basement). The high limit switch (L6006A) doesn't appear to be working. I have a picture posted below. Do I have it wired correctly? I have it jumped at the moment so that it will run. I would think that because the water in the boiler is probably around 65 to 70 degrees, the high limit switch should be allowing power through. The way I have it wired... it is not. Just wondering if I am doing it correctly.

Another question is do I need the high limit switch L6006A if using the triple aquastat correctly? I have pictures of course...

The timer I'm going to use for the DHW in the summer is pictured as well. It was the least expensive thing I could find at a local hardware store - paid $104. It should do the trick. It can be a 5, 10, 15, or 60 minute timer. In the 60 minute mode, the shortest time is 2 minutes that it let the blower run. Is this too much for making DHW for summertime use? I'm burning an AA-130.

Thanks... Pret
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I removed the 8" reducer and installed the 6" reducer into the flu. I cemented some stove gasket material around the reducer and stuck it in the flu... and then filled in all around with furnace cement.
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I placed the baro about 12 inches from the flu... it's level both vertical and horizontal. At times I get a strong draft, other times a breeze. That will change with a fire...
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triple aquastat
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Hi limit switch
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pret
 

Re: About to burn... baro for an AA?? Question!

PostBy: pret On: Sat Jul 26, 2008 2:50 pm

And two other pics that go with the last post. Pret.
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The timer I plan to use
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pret
 

Re: About to burn... baro for an AA?? Question!

PostBy: ceccil On: Sat Jul 26, 2008 3:32 pm

You can buy a draft guage (MANOMETER) on ebay for around 20.00 + shipping. Most here are purchasing the Dwyer Mark II model 25. Be patient and you should get one at a decent price.


Also here on the forum they have a loaner program for the manometer.

http://nepacrossroads.com/about2727.html
ceccil
 
Stove/Furnace Make: Keystoker, Harman
Stove/Furnace Model: 90K, Mark III

Re: About to burn... baro for an AA?? Question!

PostBy: LsFarm On: Sat Jul 26, 2008 4:13 pm

Hi pret.. your chimney will have some draft, probably about .02-.04"wc.. you need to buy a manometer... you can't make an accurate one, much less calibrate it accurately. With a manometer you can adjust your barodamper.

With a grate full of coal, and some regular draft at idle, you will see virtually zero fly ash or exhaust out of the flapper on the baro.. remember, there were thousands of these boilers running like you have yours now set up. I've watched my baro and manometer dozens of time when the fan starts, I've never seen anything come out of the baro. I maybe wouldn't notice any CO, but I would notice a cloud of flyash.

Greg L.
LsFarm
 
Stoker Coal Boiler: Axeman Anderson 260
Hand Fed Coal Boiler: Self-built 'Big Bertha' SS Boiler
Baseburners & Antiques: Keystone 11, Art Garland

Re: About to burn... baro for an AA?? Question!

PostBy: CapeCoaler On: Sat Jul 26, 2008 4:24 pm

The RC model barometric damper has positive damper stops so the door can not open into the room, CO can still slip by, under positive pressure. I did not notice any 'ears' on your damper, check to make sure it has stops of some sort.
CapeCoaler
 
Stoker Coal Boiler: want AA130
Hand Fed Coal Stove: DS Machine BS#4, Harman MKII, Hitzer 503,...
Coal Size/Type: Pea/Nut/Stove

Re: About to burn... baro for an AA?? Question!

PostBy: pret On: Sat Jul 26, 2008 4:43 pm

I'll have to trust you on that Greg! Ears? yep... it's got ears :P Now all I have to do is get to timer powered up correctly...
pret
 

Re: About to burn... baro for an AA?? Question!

PostBy: LsFarm On: Sat Jul 26, 2008 5:11 pm

Pret, you will have some CO and exhaust gasses in your boiler room,, that is why I asked about an outside air source.. I'd seal the room and get all the combustion air from outside..

Without ashes and coal on my grate, the fan cannot suck the inspection plate closed.There is too big a hole supplying air to the fan, with ashes and coal on the grate, filling this big hole, the plate slams shut with a 'Clang" within about 2 seconds of the fan starting..

My AA boiler will have a puff of flyash and dust from around the fan shaft and fan plate.. the area around the shaft is under a slight positive pressure for about 2-3 seconds when the fan first starts up. But I don't see anything coming our of my baro damper.. it is about 8' downstream from the boiler exhaust.

I'd put a vertical section where you have an immediate elbow above the boiler, then put in a tee, with the one unused port covered with a cap, this will be your cleanout for the long horizontal run of flue pipe.. makes cleaning much easier.

Note the manometer on the far wall just above the stepladder.. fuzzy photo,, sorry.

Greg L
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LsFarm
 
Stoker Coal Boiler: Axeman Anderson 260
Hand Fed Coal Boiler: Self-built 'Big Bertha' SS Boiler
Baseburners & Antiques: Keystone 11, Art Garland

Re: About to burn... baro for an AA?? Question!

PostBy: coal berner On: Sat Jul 26, 2008 6:23 pm

pret wrote:I'll have to trust you on that Greg! Ears? yep... it's got ears :P Now all I have to do is get to timer powered up correctly...
Pret get yourself a RC-34 or a Type M Baro The M is Made for coal The RC 34 as a scale
build on it to help setting it up with a Dwyer Mark II 25 Manometer instead of the one like you have witch as a screw
weight that can be a PITA in setting up the correct draft setting The RC-34 is very easy to use The RCBT is like yours But as a slide scale on it like RC-34 Either way Get a Dwyer Mark II 25 Manometer to set your draft up correctly Enjoy the AA 130 you will be warm this winter and you will have extra cash in your Pocket by burning coal :D

http://fieldcontrols.com/draftcontrol.php


http://www.dwyer-inst.com/htdocs/pressure/Model25-40Price.cfm
This link is broken, either the page no longer exists or there is some other issue like a typo.
coal berner
 
Stoker Coal Boiler: 1986 Electric Furnace Man 520 DF
Stove/Furnace Make: Electric Furnace Man
Stove/Furnace Model: DF520