Suggestions for new plumbing for remote boiler - With pics

Suggestions for new plumbing for remote boiler - With pics

PostBy: biggreen1 On: Sat Aug 02, 2008 11:27 am

Here is a couple pics of my existing plumbing plus the pex pipe coming in from the garage. As you can see, the circulator is now on the return side so I want to move it to the supply side after the expansion tank, then the flo check. I'm planning on having that circ pump running constantly. Then T it to 1. a circulator for the house radiators on one branch, with a flo check before it mets the return and 2. directly back to the coal boiler on the other branch. Thanks to multiple suggestions and comments here I will also incorporate isolation valves around the pumps and drain valves at the low points (and probably air vents at the high points also). I hope this plan makes sense, if not please let me know.

My question is about where to put all the additional plumbing. As you can see the supply now crosses directly over the boiler now (in fact one of the pipes is touching the flue pipe) I don't think adding more pipes and pumps over top of the boiler is such a good idea. There are no walls nearby, the boiler is out there all by itself. Any suggestions?
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biggreen1
 

Re: Suggestions for new plumbing for remote boiler - With pics

PostBy: Freddy On: Sat Aug 02, 2008 12:08 pm

If you move the pump make sure you still have at least 10 inches of straight pipe before the air scoop.
Freddy
 
Stoker Coal Boiler: Axeman Anderson 130 (pea)
Hot Air Coal Stoker Stove: Reading piece o' junk in the barn (rice)
Coal Size/Type: Pea size, Superior, deep mined

Re: Suggestions for new plumbing for remote boiler - With pics

PostBy: biggreen1 On: Sun Aug 03, 2008 12:21 am

Freddy, Definitely will do that, thanks. Do you think it's worth it to move it? The plumbing would be simpler leaving it where it is now. But I know, "pumping away". Maybe with a remote boiler it doesn't matter since it's already 90' from the coal heat source.

edit - I re read the chapter on circ pumps and I guess the key is to put the pump just after the expansion tank (it keeps much more constant pressure in the system that way), the closeness of the heat source is not the crital factor. So I think I'll move it. As far as where the additional piping will go, I guess it'll have to get hung on the side and suspended with hangers.

Sorry to bother you guys with so many questions. BG
biggreen1
 


Re: Suggestions for new plumbing for remote boiler - With pics

PostBy: Freddy On: Sun Aug 03, 2008 5:19 am

Personally, I wouldn't move it. "If it ain't busted, don't fix it". 10-15 yrs ago while I was installing systems there was a lot of debate about which way was better. We mostly put pumps on the return, but did a few on the supply. Never had an issue or complaint either way. One way might be better, but not better enough to change it if it's the other way.
Freddy
 
Stoker Coal Boiler: Axeman Anderson 130 (pea)
Hot Air Coal Stoker Stove: Reading piece o' junk in the barn (rice)
Coal Size/Type: Pea size, Superior, deep mined

Re: Suggestions for new plumbing for remote boiler - With pics

PostBy: coalkirk On: Sun Aug 03, 2008 9:34 am

Supply side is better. There's a whole book written on the subject. Pumping Away;and other really cool piping options for hydronic systems by Dan Holohan
coalkirk
 
Stoker Coal Boiler: Harman VF3000
Coal Size/Type: antrhcite/rice coal

Re: Suggestions for new plumbing for remote boiler - With pics

PostBy: Freddy On: Sun Aug 03, 2008 3:45 pm

coalkirk wrote:Supply side is better.


Why?
Freddy
 
Stoker Coal Boiler: Axeman Anderson 130 (pea)
Hot Air Coal Stoker Stove: Reading piece o' junk in the barn (rice)
Coal Size/Type: Pea size, Superior, deep mined

Re: Suggestions for new plumbing for remote boiler - With pics

PostBy: Yanche On: Sun Aug 03, 2008 5:43 pm

To get dissolved gases out of the water you need two things, hot water and low pressure. Obviously the hottest water is on the supply. When the circulator runs the lowest pressure will be on the inlet side of the circulator. So you combine the two principles. The boiler supply line goes to the air scoop which is followed by the circulator. Having the circulator on the supply side also reduces the boiler vessel pressure, rather than increasing it as if the circulator were on the return side. This is important because of the fixed pressure of the safety blow off valve (usually 30 psi). In one case you are increasing the pressure margin in the other you are reducing it.
Yanche
 
Stoker Coal Boiler: Alternate Heating Systems S-130
Coal Size/Type: Anthracite Pea

Re: Suggestions for new plumbing for remote boiler - With pics

PostBy: Freddy On: Sun Aug 03, 2008 8:59 pm

Well, thanks to a kind fellow I'm going to get that book and read it. You know who you are.... thanks!

In PSI, how much pressure difference is there? I'm guessing it can't be much at all. Half pound? Two? Just curious.
Freddy
 
Stoker Coal Boiler: Axeman Anderson 130 (pea)
Hot Air Coal Stoker Stove: Reading piece o' junk in the barn (rice)
Coal Size/Type: Pea size, Superior, deep mined

Re: Suggestions for new plumbing for remote boiler - With pics

PostBy: Sting On: Sun Aug 03, 2008 9:33 pm

Even that little difference is enough to allow air to come out of suspension like it does when you boil a pot of water on the stove .

sometimes :lol:
Sting
 
Other Heating: OBSO Lennox Pulse "Air Scorcher" burning NG

Re: Suggestions for new plumbing for remote boiler - With pics

PostBy: biggreen1 On: Sun Aug 03, 2008 10:03 pm

3 figures in the book show the following:
With 10psi in the system - The one with the pump directly after the exp tank shows 18 psi after the pump going down to 10psi at the exp tank. The fugure with the pump before the exp tank shows 11psi after the pump and 2psi just before the pump.
With 5 psi - The figure with the pump before the exp tank shows 6psi after the pump and (-3)psi just before the pump.
Last edited by biggreen1 on Sun Aug 03, 2008 10:18 pm, edited 2 times in total.
biggreen1
 

Re: Suggestions for new plumbing for remote boiler - With pics

PostBy: MINO On: Sun Aug 03, 2008 10:16 pm

Not to get off the beaten path is it better to push or pull water through a mixing valve????
MINO
 

Re: Suggestions for new plumbing for remote boiler - With pics

PostBy: Freddy On: Mon Aug 04, 2008 7:03 am

Biggreen.... thank you. Those numbers are much larger than I'd have guessed.

I'd push water through a mixing valve. I say that because that's what happens with a domestic water one. (although I think it'll work fine either way) Some things only work one way. I was dragging a chain down the road one day, passerby asks "How come you're dragging that chain?" I said "Ever try pushing one?"
Freddy
 
Stoker Coal Boiler: Axeman Anderson 130 (pea)
Hot Air Coal Stoker Stove: Reading piece o' junk in the barn (rice)
Coal Size/Type: Pea size, Superior, deep mined

Re: Suggestions for new plumbing for remote boiler - With pics

PostBy: beatle78 On: Mon Aug 04, 2008 9:26 pm

Freddy wrote:Some things only work one way. I was dragging a chain down the road one day, passerby asks "How come you're dragging that chain?" I said "Ever try pushing one?"


:lol: :lol: :lol:
beatle78
 
Stove/Furnace Make: Keystoker KA-4

Re: Suggestions for new plumbing for remote boiler - With pics

PostBy: biggreen1 On: Mon Aug 04, 2008 9:32 pm

Can someone tell me that 1" copper is large enough for my re-plumbing??????..........I hope....
biggreen1
 

Re: Suggestions for new plumbing for remote boiler - With pics

PostBy: biggreen1 On: Tue Aug 05, 2008 10:56 pm

I guess I should clarify my question.
My understanding is that resistance to water flow in a pipe is similar to electrical flow in a wire (series circuit). The total resistance is = to the sum of all the individual resistors.

Since my loop between the coal and oil boiler will be about 180' total (including both supply and return) of 1" pex-al which has approx the same inside diameter as 1" copper, I see no real advantage in going larger than 1" copper for the reworked plumbing at the oil boiler. Right now some of it is 1 1/4" copper, some 1 1/2" copper and some steel of various sizes. The compression fittings for the pex-al also go into the pipe so the size there goes down to about 7/8”.

The price of everything goes up substantially between 1" and 1 1/4" but if larger is significantly better I'll go bigger. Am I missing something?
biggreen1