Do I need a stainless steel liner for my chimney?

Re: Do I need a stainless steel liner for my chimney?

PostBy: whistlenut On: Wed Oct 07, 2009 8:40 pm

Smitty, you are scaring me......someone burned wood in that chimney. I'd consider making those pics disappear before that damned lizard come knockin' on the door.

I tore down two 1892 chimneys at my house during the rebuild. OMGawd! Had an old coal one pipe steam boiler and obviously someone had burned wood considering the thimbles on each floor. (6 thimbles found, had those tin spring loaded covers....behind sheetrock! I gutted everything after I saw that and I for one laugh at the purists when they say "They sure don't built em like they used to"! (Thank Gawd!) The chimneys did not require any sledgehammers, or even a 5 pounder. 20 oz claw hammer. Had 5 young guys who thought it would be a challenge to see who could get down the 32' to the ground first. Took 1 hr and 45 minutes to get em down, 2 hrs to clean it up. Old brick was so soft you could push a pencil into it. Don't build em like they used to....

I guess the liner route is a viable route to take, but if it has to come down.....take it down and build a new one with a clay liner and use refractory cement between flue tiles. I fill the open space with masonry sand and keep it dry until we get it capped. Liners aren't cheap either..... :idea:
whistlenut
 
Stoker Coal Boiler: AA130's,260's, AHS130&260's,EFM900,GJ&VanWert
Hand Fed Coal Boiler: Franks Boiler,Itasca415,NYer130,Van Wert
Hot Air Coal Stoker Furnace: Yellow Flame
Hot Air Coal Stoker Stove: Alaska-4,Keystoker-2,
Hand Fed Coal Stove: Alaska,Gibraltor,Keystone,Vc Vigilant 2
Hand Fed Coal Furnace: Van Wert, NYer's, Ford,Jensen.
Coal Size/Type: Rice,Buck,Pea,Nut&Stove
Other Heating: Oil HWBB

Re: Do I need a stainless steel liner for my chimney?

PostBy: Lola Coalfire On: Wed Oct 07, 2009 9:12 pm

Coal Sister! Howdy! The pocono plateau is my home now too! October to May is also my pampered anthricite comfort zone.

I've started the fire (repeatedly) and had it fairly robust before filling the hopper. I leave the front vent all the way open for the nightband wake to a fairly passive fire visible under the 2-3" of new coal from the hopper. I shake and poke, leave the ash door open, drink my huge cup of black coffee, walk dog and jump in the shower. By the time I leave for work and must close the ash door, I feel doubtful about the feeble fire base. Feeble but established. Too feeble for my tastes, so I dress the baro with tin foil before leaving. This forces more air through the fire, but should my stove ever decide to take off, the closed airway to the stack would not be good. That's why I'm a Nervous Nelly and have to dash home a couple of times during day. Tonight I just saved the fire by the skin of my teeth: constructed as large a wood fire as I could, given the hopper, and heated up the stack. Stack just won't stay warm enough through the day for the coal to burn and keep it's own stack warm.
I think with my previous stoker stoves the fan made sure coal had enough draft so the stack effect followed. I could tune those stoves to burn 3 days. This situation (no the stove) i can't keep it burning without heroic interventions for hslf a day!Learning curve, indeed! Good luck with your lift off this weekend! Iguess I will see what can be done to keep this ss liner and extension warm, myself.
Lola
Lola Coalfire
 
Stove/Furnace Make: Alaska
Stove/Furnace Model: Kodiak

Re: Do I need a stainless steel liner for my chimney?

PostBy: DOUG On: Wed Oct 07, 2009 9:26 pm

Hi,

I can think of two things that you may want to try. One, making the chimney top opening a little smaller with a cap. Two, installing a draft induce fan in the stove pipe, after the barometric draft regulator. http://www.tjernlund.com/Tjernlund_8500590.pdf

Other than those two possibilities, relining your chimney with the smaller diameter stainless pipe, will probably solve your problem. I'd look into the other two options first, since your clay liner is in good condition. :idea: :)
DOUG
 
Stove/Furnace Make: CHUBBY, D.S.MACHINE BOILER
Stove/Furnace Model: CLAYTON 1600


Re: Do I need a stainless steel liner for my chimney?

PostBy: Perky On: Wed Oct 07, 2009 9:30 pm

Coal sister - Hey, I like that. Sounds like you definately have a draft problem, especially if the smoke comes out of the view door. A trick someone told me was to use a blow dryer for a bit before starting to warm the chimney and get the draft going. Worked for me once or twice, but kind of boring. I can understand being nervous leaving the front drafts wide open. Maybe you could have the person that installed the chimney or stove come back and check things out. By the way, I do the "walk the dog" thing also.
Perky
 
Stove/Furnace Make: Alaska/Franco Belge
Stove/Furnace Model: Kodiak/1375

Re: Do I need a stainless steel liner for my chimney?

PostBy: franco b On: Thu Oct 08, 2009 6:31 pm

Lola Coalfire wrote:Coal Sister! Howdy! The pocono plateau is my home now too! October to May is also my pampered anthricite comfort zone.

I've started the fire (repeatedly) and had it fairly robust before filling the hopper. I leave the front vent all the way open for the nightband wake to a fairly passive fire visible under the 2-3" of new coal from the hopper. I shake and poke, leave the ash door open, drink my huge cup of black coffee, walk dog and jump in the shower. By the time I leave for work and must close the ash door, I feel doubtful about the feeble fire base. Feeble but established. Too feeble for my tastes, so I dress the baro with tin foil before leaving. This forces more air through the fire, but should my stove ever decide to take off, the closed airway to the stack would not be good. That's why I'm a Nervous Nelly and have to dash home a couple of times during day. Tonight I just saved the fire by the skin of my teeth: constructed as large a wood fire as I could, given the hopper, and heated up the stack. Stack just won't stay warm enough through the day for the coal to burn and keep it's own stack warm.
I think with my previous stoker stoves the fan made sure coal had enough draft so the stack effect followed. I could tune those stoves to burn 3 days. This situation (no the stove) i can't keep it burning without heroic interventions for hslf a day!Learning curve, indeed! Good luck with your lift off this weekend! Iguess I will see what can be done to keep this ss liner and extension warm, myself.
Lola


I can't help but feel that something simple is being overlooked. Like finding out the TV is not working because it is not plugged in.

You say it is a cottage, so I assume it is small. Have you tried opening a window a few inches? The house may be too tight. Air has to come from somewhere to go up the chimney, and if the house is tight you will not have draft without providing an incoming source. You may have to install an outside air supply.

I assume that no vents on the stove other than the ones on the ash door are open.

Richard
franco b
 
Hand Fed Coal Stove: V ermont Castings 2310, Franco Belge 262
Baseburners & Antiques: Glenwood Modern Oak 114
Coal Size/Type: nut and pea

Re: Do I need a stainless steel liner for my chimney?

PostBy: Lola Coalfire On: Fri Oct 09, 2009 12:28 pm

Friday, rainy and 50ish. I know it is a little warm for a coal fire, but... The poor thing is barely puffing along. I've run home twice to check it. (My stove may not get fired, but I might for leaving to check on it so often!) Yes, I feel as if it is something elementary. My cottage is far from airtight. It is not even insulated! I've tried using just the bimetal thermostadt; using just the ash door vent; leaving just the ash door open; foil over the baro. It seems to me that the 6" ss liner is just not warm enough. Sometimes, I've built a wee wood fire on top of the SLOW burning coal bed to warm it up. That does seem to help for a while. It has not actually gone out, but has no life and would probably die if left alone.

I am wondering about insulating the space around the liner. Fill it with vermiculite as some others have done? That would be a real mess when the stinking ss liner has to be replaced, though. Hopefully, when the insulated 3' ss extension is on the top and the weather is colder, the fire will come alive. :(

I am really looking forward to the Coalcast on venting in November (if I don't freeze to death by then.)

Thanks for your input, Coalies!
Lola Coalfire
 
Stove/Furnace Make: Alaska
Stove/Furnace Model: Kodiak

Re: Do I need a stainless steel liner for my chimney?

PostBy: Lola Coalfire On: Fri Oct 09, 2009 12:46 pm

By the way, Doug, the in-line draft inducer gives me hope that all will not be lost if I cannot get a draft naturally! I can install an inducer...sort of like cosmetic surgery for a coal stove! That would be last resort, of course. Fran, I guess I could use the hair dryer to keep warm if all else fails! I could use a cable tie and position it inside my sleeve. Of course I'd need a long extension cord so I could move around the cottage. ('kiddin.)
Lola Coalfire
 
Stove/Furnace Make: Alaska
Stove/Furnace Model: Kodiak

Re: Do I need a stainless steel liner for my chimney?

PostBy: franco b On: Fri Oct 09, 2009 4:41 pm

Lola Coalfire wrote:Friday, rainy and 50ish. I know it is a little warm for a coal fire, but... The poor thing is barely puffing along. I've run home twice to check it. (My stove may not get fired, but I might for leaving to check on it so often!) Yes, I feel as if it is something elementary. My cottage is far from airtight. It is not even insulated! I've tried using just the bimetal thermostadt; using just the ash door vent; leaving just the ash door open; foil over the baro. It seems to me that the 6" ss liner is just not warm enough. Sometimes, I've built a wee wood fire on top of the SLOW burning coal bed to warm it up. That does seem to help for a while. It has not actually gone out, but has no life and would probably die if left alone.

I am wondering about insulating the space around the liner. Fill it with vermiculite as some others have done? That would be a real mess when the stinking ss liner has to be replaced, though. Hopefully, when the insulated 3' ss extension is on the top and the weather is colder, the fire will come alive. :(

I am really looking forward to the Coalcast on venting in November (if I don't freeze to death by then.)

Thanks for your input, Coalies!


Went to the Alaska website to try to get more info on the stove. Learned it has a secondary air provision. Close this off at least temporarily.

Strike a match or use a lighter and hold the flame to the gap in the barometric damper door to see if the flame sucks in and how strongly it does so. Does that door remain closed all the time or does it partially open? Twist a torn off piece of paper, light it and hold it to the open door of the baro. How well does it suck in the flame and smoke? I am trying to see whether to blame the chimney or the stove.

Also read that it has an internal damper. Make sure it is open. Using a flashlight examine the internal smoke path to be certain nothing is obstructing it, like overlooked packing material. If the hopper is removable take it out so you can really see. Leave it out for the time being to see what is going on when firing.

Any leakage of air around the outside of the grate will bypass the coal and lead to the condition you describe. All air has to go through the coal. Examine carefully, maybe take out the bricks to see better.Does it burn wood easily, hot, and fast?

Since it is an inside chimney I find it hard to accept that it will not draw well,especially since you had it lined.

Richard
franco b
 
Hand Fed Coal Stove: V ermont Castings 2310, Franco Belge 262
Baseburners & Antiques: Glenwood Modern Oak 114
Coal Size/Type: nut and pea

Re: Do I need a stainless steel liner for my chimney?

PostBy: Lola Coalfire On: Sat Oct 10, 2009 8:37 am

Thanks to you all for noodling my problem around.
Richard, secondary air provision? I see the draft controls on the ash door and the bimetal therm in back.
--Smoke from the lit newspaper flows onto the baro. The smoke flows,it does not rush into the baro.
--Wood burns but without much gusto. It smokes a lot and if I open the view door much of the smoke puffs into the room. It does burn sufficiently to ignite the starting coal: Small pieces I've picked out of the bin or broken up onto pea/rice size.
--The hopper is not easily removed, at least by me. I will let this suffering fire go out this weekend to examine every square inch, and check the things you mentioned, verifying that the interior baffle is centered over the exhaust hole. -----Sweep and I worked together to get the baffle in, with him reaching through the front and me reaching through the exhaust hole. I don't think we could have missed any obstruction.
--Question: This ss extension? It will extend above the stone chimney 3'. I assumed it would be insulated for draft enhancement, but you know what happens when you assume. Seems that "normally" the uninsulated extension that goes with the ss liner system would be installed. If I want insulated, that's a whole 'nuther deal. Expensive on top of an already expensive install. What to do, what to do?
Lola Coalfire
 
Stove/Furnace Make: Alaska
Stove/Furnace Model: Kodiak

Re: Do I need a stainless steel liner for my chimney?

PostBy: Poconoeagle On: Sat Oct 10, 2009 8:43 am

Lola... if your in pocono plateau then your near lake Jamie? a few minutes from my house in panther??
Poconoeagle
 
Stove/Furnace Make: Buckwalter & Co. , EFM520
Stove/Furnace Model: No. 28 Glenwood 1880, Alaska

Re: Do I need a stainless steel liner for my chimney?

PostBy: Lola Coalfire On: Sat Oct 10, 2009 2:16 pm

Hi Poconoeagle--

I'm in Pocono Pines. I'm new here and don't know where lake Jamie is? I see your tag says Tobyhanna, where I work.
Stove is working marginally better now that the temp dropped, but the fire still lacks energy. I should do what I said and let this fire go out...but ...it is a small source of heat. Do you have your Alaska fired up yet?
Lola Coalfire
 
Stove/Furnace Make: Alaska
Stove/Furnace Model: Kodiak

Re: Do I need a stainless steel liner for my chimney?

PostBy: franco b On: Sat Oct 10, 2009 4:38 pm

Lola Coalfire wrote:Thanks to you all for noodling my problem around.
Richard, secondary air provision? I see the draft controls on the ash door and the bimetal therm in back.
--Smoke from the lit newspaper flows onto the baro. The smoke flows,it does not rush into the baro.
--Wood burns but without much gusto. It smokes a lot and if I open the view door much of the smoke puffs into the room. It does burn sufficiently to ignite the starting coal: Small pieces I've picked out of the bin or broken up onto pea/rice size.
--The hopper is not easily removed, at least by me. I will let this suffering fire go out this weekend to examine every square inch, and check the things you mentioned, verifying that the interior baffle is centered over the exhaust hole. -----Sweep and I worked together to get the baffle in, with him reaching through the front and me reaching through the exhaust hole. I don't think we could have missed any obstruction.
--Question: This ss extension? It will extend above the stone chimney 3'. I assumed it would be insulated for draft enhancement, but you know what happens when you assume. Seems that "normally" the uninsulated extension that goes with the ss liner system would be installed. If I want insulated, that's a whole 'nuther deal. Expensive on top of an already expensive install. What to do, what to do?


Regarding the liner which I assume is 6 inch, I would be concerned that it is central at the top and well sealed between the liner and flue tile at the top. By trapping that air outside of the liner and between it and the flue tile, it will act as insulation, keeping the liner much warmer. A metal plate with a central hole for the liner should do. Also stuff fiberglass insulation around the liner at the bottom to seal it. I still think that chimney should draw without the extension as long as it extends 6 inches or so above the flue tile of the stone chimney.

Does the chimney have a clean out, perhaps in the basement. If so is the door to it sealed well?

It could well be that with all the rain we had that chimney is good and wet. Try a good hot wood fire for 3 or 4 hours to get everything good and hot before adding coal.

Would be great if Poconoeagle could also get a look. The more eyes the better.

Richard
franco b
 
Hand Fed Coal Stove: V ermont Castings 2310, Franco Belge 262
Baseburners & Antiques: Glenwood Modern Oak 114
Coal Size/Type: nut and pea

Re: Do I need a stainless steel liner for my chimney?

PostBy: Poconoeagle On: Sat Oct 10, 2009 11:19 pm

Not yet. lake jamie is next door to "pocono Pleateau" it is a christian camp/retreat between south sterling and newfoundland. I am in the farms country club and just a short few minutes from the pines... would be happy to eyeball your issue if ya like. this cold snap tonite is a reality check 8-)
Poconoeagle
 
Stove/Furnace Make: Buckwalter & Co. , EFM520
Stove/Furnace Model: No. 28 Glenwood 1880, Alaska

Re: Do I need a stainless steel liner for my chimney?

PostBy: Lola Coalfire On: Sun Oct 11, 2009 7:50 am

Hey! I've had a heck of a time posting. Tried 5 times yesterday. Let's see if those cookies are deleted and my test message gets posted. Thanks.
Lola Coalfire
 
Stove/Furnace Make: Alaska
Stove/Furnace Model: Kodiak

Re: Do I need a stainless steel liner for my chimney?

PostBy: Lola Coalfire On: Sun Oct 11, 2009 7:56 am

Poconoeagle! That is so kind of you! I would be so happy if you would come over and look at what I've got. We could meet at The Jubilee restaurant. I'm just a stone's throw from there.
Thanks!
Lola Coalfire
 
Stove/Furnace Make: Alaska
Stove/Furnace Model: Kodiak