Carter and the Failed Recue Mission

Carter and the Failed Recue Mission

PostBy: Devil505 On: Sat Aug 30, 2008 9:00 pm

CapeCoaler wrote:The hostage rescue by the Carter administration was a sad moment in our history.


Just another point I intended to make but forgot:

The hostage rescue attempt was not "by the Carter administration"........It was "BY" a newly formed military unit called "Delta Force." The fact that it OCCURRED during the Carter administration can no more be blamed on Carter than can the space shuttle Challenger disaster (in 1986) be blamed on Ronald Reagan.
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Re: Just a little oil heat news

PostBy: LsFarm On: Sat Aug 30, 2008 9:47 pm

Devil505 wrote:
CapeCoaler wrote:The hostage rescue by the Carter administration was a sad moment in our history.


Just another point I intended to make but forgot:

The hostage rescue attempt was not "by the Carter administration"........It was "BY" a newly formed military unit called "Delta Force." The fact that it OCCURRED during the Carter administration can no more be blamed on Carter than can the space shuttle Challenger disaster (in 1986) be blamed on Ronald Reagan.



Come on Devil, the Comander in Chief authorizes this type of commando operation, Carter held back and didn't let the operation be run with enough men and equipment..

The commander in Chief orders, and ok's such an operation.. The President doesn't command Nasa, or tell Nasa how to run it's operation.. Nasa had it's own tragic stream of errors, but not ordered by the President.

Carter wanted and got a 'small' indescrete operation, that failed because it was too small with too little back up and planning. Too much was held back, President Milche-Toast got what he asked for.

Greg L
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Re: Just a little oil heat news

PostBy: Devil505 On: Sat Aug 30, 2008 9:59 pm

LsFarm wrote:Come on Devil, the Comander in Chief authorizes this type of commando operation, Carter held back and didn't let the operation be run with enough men and equipment.


Pure speculation on your part Greg. No President wants a mission like that to fail on his watch. If you have evidence to support your contention that Carter got into the operational details of the raid, please post them.

LsFarm wrote:Carter wanted and got a 'small' indescrete operation, that failed because it was too small with too little back up and planning. Too much was held back, President Milche-Toast got what he asked for.


Again......please provide some evidence to support your words.
Last edited by Devil505 on Sat Aug 30, 2008 10:04 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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Re: Just a little oil heat news

PostBy: CapeCoaler On: Sat Aug 30, 2008 10:25 pm

Hurricane takes a new route to Cuba and then putters out.
Seriously if the infrastructure is not damaged to any extent then the prices will go up but then correct.
Katrina knocked some rigs around but the vast majority survived.
But the 'all eggs in one basket' of refineries on the Gulf Coast is a problem this time of year.
We should have some more refineries inland, say Kansas.
http://www.siouxcityjournal.com/articles/2008/03/21/news/local/686f97aef1c167628625741200575fc8.txt

Must not respond..... to the bait,.... can....not....help.....it
Sorry kids.

Well technically Carter was CinC.....
And Delta Force is under his direction.....
He had to authorize the action....
How is he not responsible?
Should have asked the Israelis for some help.

Planning for this rescue effort began shortly after our Embassy was seized, but for a number of reasons, I waited until now to put those rescue plans into effect. To be feasible, this complex operation had to be the product of intensive planning and intensive training and repeated rehearsal. However, a resolution of this crisis through negotiations and with voluntary action on the part of the Iranian officials was obviously then, has been, and will be preferable.

This rescue attempt had to await my judgment that the Iranian authorities could not or would not resolve this crisis on their own initiative. With the steady unraveling of authority in Iran and the mounting dangers that were posed to the safety of the hostages themselves and the growing realization that their early release was highly unlikely, I made a decision to commence the rescue operations plans.

It was my decision to attempt the rescue operation. It was my decision to cancel it when problems developed in the placement of our rescue team for a future rescue operation. The responsibility is fully my own.


Source http://www.presidency.ucsb.edu/ws/index.php?pid=33322

Yes, Regan can be blamed, he too was CinC and NASA, while not a military operation, is under his direction along with Congress.
They all were pushing the envelope with crapped out equipment, it was not unexpected.
The NASA guys knew it would happen but no one bitched loud, long or high enough.
It was a systemic problem that began long before and he failed to see the warning signs.
The system failed on his 'watch' so it is his problem because he did not correct it.
Bad news/things get all the attention but good news just passes us by.
Bad news will travel twice around the world before good news even makes it out the door.

NASA is an independent civilian space agency under the executive branch, created by Congress to help execute policy or provide special services (other independent agencies include the Central Intelligence Agency, the Environmental Protection Agency and the National Science Foundation). Although NASA is not a cabinet-level organization like the Department of Defense, its administrator gets nominated by the President and must be confirmed by the Senate. Presidents can set policies/directions for the agency. Here are some examples:

1961- President John F. Kennedy directed NASA to land men on the moon by 1970
1972 - President Richard M. Nixon instructed NASA to develop the space shuttle
1984 - President Ronald Reagan called on NASA to develop a space station "in a decade"

1989 - President George H.W. Bush proposed to send humans to Mars
2004 - President George W. Bush directed NASA develop a new space vehicle by 2008 (now called Orion, see How the Crew Exploration Vehicle Works) and focus human space activities on exploration

Like all other government agencies and departments, NASA proposes an annual budget, which gets incorporated into the President's annual budget and submitted to Congress. Congress debates and appropriates funds to NASA through legislation (appropriations bills). NASA's success in carrying out its mission and achieving presidential directives is highly dependent upon funding from Congress. For example, the Mars exploration program proposed by President George H.W. Bush met enormous resistance in Congress because it was deemed to be too expensive ($500 billion over 20 to 30 years). Congress did not fund the program and the proposal failed.

http://science.howstuffworks.com/nasa.htm


Parley?
I will eat any thing if it is prepared properly!
Piggies from my friends farm done up by the butcher in Sanford, ME.
Walk em in the back and two weeks later they are all wrapped and ready for the freezer.
Red deer is a favorite, he has a stock of elk that he raises and butchers.
USDA inspected too!

They constantly try to escape
From the darkness outside and within
By dreaming of systems so perfect that no one will need to be good.
But the man that is shall shadow
The man that pretends to be.

T. S. Eliot


Parley?
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Re: Just a little oil heat news

PostBy: LsFarm On: Sat Aug 30, 2008 10:30 pm

Thanks CapeCoaler.

Devil, there was a comprehensive story on Discovery or A&E just a week or so ago, it probably was a re-run.. do a google search,, I'm sure you will find it,, I read about Carter's Milche-Toast presidency many years ago, I don't remember the publication, but I think it was a mainstream rag like Time, Newsweek or similar,, describing what went wrong and why.. the then Pres Carter was fully implicated..

As stated in a post above, way too little, way too late..

Dick, your conspiracy pills are really kickin' huh??

Greg L.
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Re: Just a little oil heat news

PostBy: Devil505 On: Sun Aug 31, 2008 7:48 am

CapeCoaler wrote:
Well technically Carter was CinC.....
And Delta Force is under his direction.....
He had to authorize the action....
How is he not responsible?
Should have asked the Israelis for some help.

Planning for this rescue effort began shortly after our Embassy was seized, but for a number of reasons, I waited until now to put those rescue plans into effect. To be feasible, this complex operation had to be the product of intensive planning and intensive training and repeated rehearsal. However, a resolution of this crisis through negotiations and with voluntary action on the part of the Iranian officials was obviously then, has been, and will be preferable.

This rescue attempt had to await my judgment that the Iranian authorities could not or would not resolve this crisis on their own initiative. With the steady unraveling of authority in Iran and the mounting dangers that were posed to the safety of the hostages themselves and the growing realization that their early release was highly unlikely, I made a decision to commence the rescue operations plans.

It was my decision to attempt the rescue operation. It was my decision to cancel it when problems developed in the placement of our rescue team for a future rescue operation. The responsibility is fully my own.


Source http://www.presidency.ucsb.edu/ws/index.php?pid=33322



Not one hint of anything that shows that Carter was involved in the tactical planning or execution of the mission itself. He merely had the guts to call it off when he was advised that it no longer had a chance to succeed. Then, he takes full responsibility..........lLike a man! (not a spoiled little rich boy)
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Re: Just a little oil heat news

PostBy: CapeCoaler On: Sun Aug 31, 2008 10:01 am

So.....
Is the president responsible for the out come of an operation he initiated?
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Re: Just a little oil heat news

PostBy: Devil505 On: Sun Aug 31, 2008 10:24 am

CapeCoaler wrote:So.....
Is the president responsible for the out come of an operation he initiated?


Funny...but it seems that many people on this forum, who blame Carter for everything bad that happened on his watch, give Bush a pass for all the bad things in Iraq & our present economy that has happened on his watch?!? How does that work???
(& now give McCain a pass for promising to keep the same failed policies in effect for another 4 long years!)
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Re: Just a little oil heat news

PostBy: LsFarm On: Sun Aug 31, 2008 10:35 am

To conduct an operation in a sovereign country requires the OK of the President.

The way I remember the look-back on the failed rescue mission was that it was scaled down at the request of Carter,, he didn't want to use 'too-much' force.. he didn't want their military action to appear to be an invasion,, only a rescue.. What BS.. An Embassy is soveriegn territory.. that's the way it is.. so our country [our embassy] had already been invaded... and our people were being held at gun-point.

I remember Carter's term with a lot of terrible memories. The country was on it's butt. the Middle east cut off the oil, we had lines at gas stations.. Unemployment was sky high, interest rates at 16.5%,

I damn near lost my house, I was working three jobs, one full time and two part time to make every penny I could,, just to make ends meet.. Yeah,, I loved that President,, and his goof-ball ideas and no back-bone...

Greg L.
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Carter and the Devil on his shoulder

PostBy: CapeCoaler On: Sun Aug 31, 2008 11:54 am

OK moved the playground so The Mayor will not get us in trouble with Mom and Dad!
Really!
Thanks Mayor! :oops:

So.....
Is the president responsible for the out come of an operation he initiated?
Funny...but it seems that many people on this forum, who blame Carter for everything bad that happened on his watch, give Bush a pass for all the bad things in Iraq & our present economy that has happened on his watch?!? How does that work???
(& now give McCain a pass for promising to keep the same failed policies in effect for another 4 long years!)

I hold each President to the same standard.
No one gets a pass.
So we agree he was involved in it....
He was the President.....
Just the level of involvement...
The President is ultimately responsible for the actions of his subordinates....
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Re: Just a little oil heat news

PostBy: coalmeister On: Sun Aug 31, 2008 12:23 pm

LsFarm wrote:To conduct an operation in a sovereign country requires the OK of the President.

The way I remember the look-back on the failed rescue mission was that it was scaled down at the request of Carter,, he didn't want to use 'too-much' force.. he didn't want their military action to appear to be an invasion,, only a rescue.. What BS.. An Embassy is soveriegn territory.. that's the way it is.. so our country [our embassy] had already been invaded... and our people were being held at gun-point.

I remember Carter's term with a lot of terrible memories. The country was on it's butt. the Middle east cut off the oil, we had lines at gas stations.. Unemployment was sky high, interest rates at 16.5%,

I damn near lost my house, I was working three jobs, one full time and two part time to make every penny I could,, just to make ends meet.. Yeah,, I loved that President,, and his goof-ball ideas and no back-bone...

Greg L.



Why do we have to dig up information from 25+ years ago to prove Carter is a moron? He is still proving it on a daily basis.

"(CNN) -- Hamas deserves to be recognized by the international community, and despite the group's militant history, there is a chance the soon-to-be Palestinian leaders could turn away from violence, former President Jimmy Carter said Wednesday."

Still proving he knows nothing about the Middle East

"(CNN) Carter said the two Hamas officials indicated that they would accept a peace agreement with Israel if the plan were approved through "a referendum of the Palestinian community.""

"He was unable to secure a ceasefire or a prisoner exchange for an Israeli soldier seized by Gaza militants in 2006, but on Monday Carter said Hamas told him it would recognise Israel's right to exist such a deal was approved by a Palestinian vote.

Boy did Hamas make a fool out of him shortly thereafter :

"(AFP)Just hours later Meshaal told a press conference in Damascus that Hamas would not recognise the Jewish state"

Devil, You need to pick your battles better and only use dry powder, Carter would be considered wet moldy powder. Clinton might be a better grade of powder without mold, but might come with embarrassing "wet spots"
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Re: Carter and the Failed Recue Mission

PostBy: CapeCoaler On: Sun Aug 31, 2008 12:32 pm

OK some more citation and a link to analysis of the operation.
Constraints: Brzezinski determined early that the only feasible military action for the situation was a rescue mission. The President and Brzezinski developed guidance for the mission. The guidance included several of the President’s own personal principles.

On 5 November 1979, Brzezinski requested that the CJCS begin planning for a military option with the following constraints:

1. Maintain absolute secrecy in all phases of the development of the plan.

2. Protect the lives of the hostages.

3. Minimize Iranian casualties and damages.

4. Minimize the size of the planning group and the assault force.


More than five months after the seizure of the Embassy, the JCS approved the final rescue plan on April 16, 1980. The same night, the President received a detail briefing on the rescue plan, gave his last minute guidance, and issued the execution order. Earlier in the month, General Jones had indicated to the President that the mission could be ready for execution by the 24th of April.[65]

http://www.globalsecurity.org/military/ ... zworth.htm
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Re: Carter and the Failed Recue Mission

PostBy: traderfjp On: Sun Aug 31, 2008 2:18 pm

I don't think you can blame Carter for the failure.
Last edited by traderfjp on Sun Aug 31, 2008 9:47 pm, edited 2 times in total.
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Re: Carter and the Failed Recue Mission

PostBy: CapeCoaler On: Sun Aug 31, 2008 5:20 pm

History is doomed to repeat itself unless we learn from the past.
Diplomacy has its place...
It must be backed up by a strong, willing and able military force.
If you have the time read the analysis of the rescue attempt...
If you want the meat of the paper skip to chapter 5 and the conclusion...
http://www.globalsecurity.org/military/ ... zworth.htm
Carter did bring about change...
It is relevant because the Democratic party candidate seems to have The Carter Doctrine....
When it comes to foreign affairs....
At least Carter was just a simple peanut farmer....
With a good 'ol boy for a brother...
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Re: Carter and the Failed Recue Mission

PostBy: traderfjp On: Sun Aug 31, 2008 5:35 pm

Carter was probably one of the most honest presidents in history. I truly believe this. He cared, still cares and wants to make the world a better place. Lets rake him over the coals for that. Unfortunately, the economy was in a down cycle when he was president and the fiscal policy of the Federal Reserve Board was to raise interest rates. They were quite hawkish on inflation. Interest rates hit 18% or more. His down days were the boycotting of the Olympics (stupid move), giving away the Panama canal, and not being able to keep gas from hitting $2.00 a gallon. Americans had a wakeup call about our dependency on foreign oil. However, we are more dependent on foreign oil now then we were then. In retrospect Carter made mistakes but many of the circumnstances of the time couldn't have been fixed by another president.
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