Which Makes for a Better Stove? Cast Iron or Steel?

 
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dlj
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Post by dlj » Sun. Jan. 31, 2010 8:45 pm

wsherrick wrote: My Glenwood Base heater is mostly cast iron with a steel barrel. All of these old stoves are made to be easily taken apart so the various components can be replaced or maintained. Any part on my old Glenwood or my Stanley Argand can be sent off to a foundery and have a new one cast. There is a foundery in Maine that has the molds for most of the Glenwood models and I can have any part of my Glenwood replaced easily even though it is over a 100 years old.
Please give me your source in Maine that has the molds for the Glenwood!

Also, as far as welding cast iron, I've done it lots of times. Yes, it's more of a pain that welding steel, but it can be done, even with a little AC buzz box...

dj


 
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Post by LsFarm » Mon. Feb. 01, 2010 1:10 am

If I find a crack in a 'steel box' stove, I can weld it, or if a replacement part is needed, I can get a piece of steel from my scrap pile or choose from 3 different steel suppliers in a 15 mile radius, and have my 'steel box' stove back in opperation in one day or less.

As for the perfect design of the base burners.. just asking now.. how do you load one of those so that you can leave it for 3 or 4 days?? and how do you hook it up for central heating?

You see, while the base burner MAY be the 'ultimate' in coal burning for it's type of stove.. it doesn't fill or fit in many applications. And while I love history, and old designs.. I don't drive a Model A or T pickup. I drive a modern pickup. I decorate with and ocassionally use Federal Period furniture and decorative arts. But in my room where I 'live'.. I use a LazyBoy recliner, and a glass topped coffee table.. WHY? 'cause they are improvements over the easlily damaged antique furniture.. no matter how much I like the looks.. the Federal period furniture is usually very uncomfortable, and easlily damaged.

As for the original topic here,, Cast iron has problems.. it HAS to be made cast right, inspected, and carefully and skilfully assembled, because a cast iron stove body will be composed of 4 legs, 2 sides, 1 front, 1back, 1top, 1bottom, and a door composed of what? at least 3-4 items.. All of these parts MUST be assembled correctly, with great care to assure proper fit and sealing. Can you imagine paying for the skill and careing needed to build one of these stoves at a livable wage for the USA?? the stove would cost $5000.

Now, a steel body stove is welded into one piece.. some have bolt on legs, the door is still several pieces.. but the fit and sealing is taken care of in the stove body by welding it into a one piece box with a doorway. This is a much more marketable piece of hardware.. The cost is much less, the safety greater, and the skill level [cost of manufacture] is much lower.

Now: is a nice 1890's-1930's stove a work of art?? probably, is it worth restoring ? probably, and most certainly for the right application. But is it the where-all and be-all in coal burning.. nope.. it is for some applications.. If I were retired and had a home that could be heated well by a central stove, I'd probably find an old stove, rebuild it, and tend it every day, just for the entertainment.. and sit near it in my LazyBoy and read a book.. but for now.. well: I haven't even looked at my boiler today, I'll look at the ashpan tomorrow morning, I did turn up the house thermostats this morning, and turned them down this evening,, and I will even program the auto-setback thermostats once I get the rebuild done.. but.. new and automation has it's place.. My 'new' boiler is a 1950's model, all steel, I expect it to outlive me.

Greg L

I'm not unfamilar with antique: the newest clock is around 1845, the Bed is 1850 or so.
MasterBed3.jpg
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The sofa is 1825-1830ish, the banjo clock it 1820ish, the rest of the furniture and clocks early 1800's,, but the coffee table?? All 'new', well in the last 20 years, except for the decorative cast iron under the glass, that's from a demo'd house after the Detroit Riots in '67. The table made around it in about '85 or so.
Living room 1S.jpg
.JPG | 155KB | Living room 1S.jpg

 
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Post by wsherrick » Mon. Feb. 01, 2010 4:26 am

dlj wrote:
wsherrick wrote: My Glenwood Base heater is mostly cast iron with a steel barrel. All of these old stoves are made to be easily taken apart so the various components can be replaced or maintained. Any part on my old Glenwood or my Stanley Argand can be sent off to a foundery and have a new one cast. There is a foundery in Maine that has the molds for most of the Glenwood models and I can have any part of my Glenwood replaced easily even though it is over a 100 years old.
Please give me your source in Maine that has the molds for the Glenwood!

Also, as far as welding cast iron, I've done it lots of times. Yes, it's more of a pain that welding steel, but it can be done, even with a little AC buzz box...

dj
Certainly, it is the Auburn Stove Foundry, located in Gloucester, Maine. Just Google, Auburn Stove Foundery, and you should easily find it.

 
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Post by wsherrick » Mon. Feb. 01, 2010 4:54 am

LS Farm I love your clocks! I am a clock nut and I also have more of them than the law allows. I really like the pillar and scroll style clocks and I will get one someday. Also, your Empire Sofa is beautiful. You have good taste. Thanks for showing us your home. I like Eastlake stuff from the 1880's and 90's and I liked Craftsman stuff way before it became popular.
Now I was comparing hand fired stoves to hand fired stoves. Not hand fired stoves to boilers. I know a little something about boilers since I worked on steam engines off and on for almost 3 decades.
Yes there are baseburners that can go on one loading for several days as they have large magazines. You still have to shake the grates every day. They made baseburners that had air tubes for ducting to upstairs rooms. They even had them that had fittings for outside supply air, and hot water jackets for making domestic hot water. My point is that all of this stuff has been thought of and applied a century ago. And yes, most of them were made to be airtight. My Glenwood is completely airtight. Even casual observation reveals that coal stove design during the decades just before and after the Turn Of The Century reached a level of refinement and sophistication unmatched by any comparable product produced today.
Now your argument that some stoves work in some applications and not in others is true, but; that is true of anything. I don't know of anything that works in all applications.
From what I gather from this point of view is that since a steel box stove is cheaper to make, it must be better. So cheaper is better.
And to take the automation argument to its final conclusion, why use coal at all? Use natural gas or propane, then you wouldn't be digging clinkers out of the firebox. Down south in East Tennessee many people still have or had automatic underfeed, retort style stokers that burn Bitumenous. I also remember people getting rid of them too (much to my dismay at the time) because filling a hopper once a week or the daily hunt for clinkers was too messy and inconvenient.
Now don't get me wrong, I have a lot of respect for you and your vast knowlege of these subjects and I have learned from your many contributions to this Forum. I just have an aversion to the mentality that, "well that's old so get rid of it," So I am just saying that because a steel box stove is,"new," it just has to be superior to anything that is, "old" is not a valid argument without any thought behind it. Oh by the way I agree that overstuffed recliners are comfy. Just thank the guy who invented them back in the late Victorian Era. He probably put his right next to his baseburner.

 
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Post by coaledsweat » Mon. Feb. 01, 2010 7:57 am

wsherrick wrote:From what I gather from this point of view is that since a steel box stove is cheaper to make, it must be better. So cheaper is better.
I don't believe that was said in any post. It appears more like a steel box stove is a more practical appliance in this day and age to me. If cast had any real advantage over steel you would see it in a lot more appliances today, it just isn't happening. I like old wooden ships, but I wouldn't want a fleet of supertankers sailing the high seas made of it.

 
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Post by franco b » Mon. Feb. 01, 2010 2:20 pm

wsherrick wrote:Even casual observation reveals that coal stove design during the decades just before and after the Turn Of The Century reached a level of refinement and sophistication unmatched by any comparable product produced today.
With the exception of thermostatic control of the air and internal hopper I have to agree. They had style. The vertical and round format I think is superior for combustion as well as taking less floor space for a given heat exchange area. We are talking parlor stoves here though, as central systems are a completely different animal that probably led to the demise of the parlor stove.

Since the 1974 oil shock and continued high energy prices the parlor stove has made a strong comeback owing to certain advantages that no central system can match, such as: much lower price,
simpler installation, higher efficiency(less cost to run) when installed in living area owing to no distribution losses and acceptance of cooler less used rooms. The price of course is having to trundle coal and ash through the living area. There is also the freedom from electricity and the satisfaction of just looking at a piece of industrial art, (at least in the case of many antiques,including clocks).

Style in most cases was all downhill after the 17 th century, but with stoves it was the 19th.

 
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Post by dlj » Mon. Feb. 01, 2010 2:37 pm

coaledsweat wrote:
wsherrick wrote:From what I gather from this point of view is that since a steel box stove is cheaper to make, it must be better. So cheaper is better.
I don't believe that was said in any post. It appears more like a steel box stove is a more practical appliance in this day and age to me. If cast had any real advantage over steel you would see it in a lot more appliances today, it just isn't happening. I like old wooden ships, but I wouldn't want a fleet of supertankers sailing the high seas made of it.
Well, I respectfully have to disagree. Cast iron has serious advantages over steel in stoves. Especially in the regions of the firebox. The correct cast iron alloy used in this area is significantly superior in performance than plain carbon steel. In fact, although I am no expert in stove manufacture, I'm sure you will find the high end stove manufacturers using cast iron components in their firebox areas.

The analogy of old wooden ships vs modern steel ships is misleading.

The main problem with finding cast iron stoves is the cost of doing the research to meet emmission requirements and the total cost of manufacture.

dj


 
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Post by coaledsweat » Mon. Feb. 01, 2010 4:13 pm

dlj wrote:Well, I respectfully have to disagree. Cast iron has serious advantages over steel in stoves. Especially in the regions of the firebox. The correct cast iron alloy used in this area is significantly superior in performance than plain carbon steel. In fact, although I am no expert in stove manufacture, I'm sure you will find the high end stove manufacturers using cast iron components in their firebox areas.

The main problem with finding cast iron stoves is the cost of doing the research to meet emmission requirements and the total cost of manufacture.
Whatever performance advantage it has over steel is minuscule, the disadvantages are well know by the manufacturers.
I know of no emission requirements for coal stoves, only wood.
If you want to enjoy the beauty of a cast iron stove, buy one and enjoy it. If it is going in your basement and you will only see it when you tend it, why bother?

 
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Post by coalrunner » Mon. Feb. 01, 2010 10:42 pm

I'm no expert when it comes to stoves at all( I just get lucky most times, but in my previous job I worked with all things metal and learned alot. one thing I can tell you is cast iron will outlast steel any time in high heat. steel expands and contracts alot when heated and cooled where as cast dosent do so as much( think old engine blocks) in the long run steel will warp or burn out but will most likely rust up. both are good but I think cast will last longer if you don't bang on it. oh try cutting sleel and cast with a cutting torch you understand then

 
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Post by coaledsweat » Mon. Feb. 01, 2010 11:16 pm

coalrunner wrote:both are good but I think cast will last longer if you don't bang on it.
Is that really a big deal when buying an appliance that will live a hell of a lot longer than the purchaser in either material?

 
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Post by dlj » Tue. Feb. 02, 2010 12:10 am

coaledsweat wrote: Whatever performance advantage it has over steel is minuscule, the disadvantages are well know by the manufacturers.
I know of no emission requirements for coal stoves, only wood.
If you want to enjoy the beauty of a cast iron stove, buy one and enjoy it. If it is going in your basement and you will only see it when you tend it, why bother?
The original question was:
Coal Dust wrote:which makes for a better stove? cast iron or steel?

Does one conduct heat better than the other?
Does one hold-up better (last longer)?
Is one more expensive than the other?
Is one heavier than the other (stove size/dimensions being equal).

Any pros or cons using one over the other?

Thanks in advance,
The answer is cast iron makes a better stove. Cast iron lasts longer. The cost question depends upon design. Heat conduction has been touched on by others here as well as weight IIRC. Pros and cons could take years to discuss...

Look at Hitzer as an example. Why does almost every model they make use cast iron for the grates and the door? Because it's a material that is significantly superior to steel in that application.

dj

 
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Post by coalrunner » Tue. Feb. 02, 2010 12:23 am

i think everyone makes valuable points but when it comes down to it its a matter of choice. I think most stoves now days will last a long time whether they are cast or steel and both do a good job. both have good points and probably wont matter. my furnace heats my home and thats all that matters

 
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Post by LsFarm » Tue. Feb. 02, 2010 8:21 am

Cast is used in the grates because it IS superior for that application. the cast iron door are NOT for the longevity, or any heat issue.. it is for cost, it is much cheaper to cast up a door than to build one up from steel..

The steel box is bent and welded up from steel because it is a superior and cost effective way to build a safe, airtight box, just line it with firebrick, and you have as safe product.

If stoves made from cast panels were common on the market today, we'd be covering lots of crack and resealling problems on the forum.. instead we have draft and crazed-glass issue. A manufacturer who sells a cast 6-panel box stove is gambling that the purchaser keeps it tight, and doesn't over fire it and crack it.. or fails to buy CO detectors.. too much liability.

A cast stove, if very well made is an OK product, but I'd not want to buy a 'new' one. I'd buy a steel one, with decorative iron door.

Greg L

 
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Post by coaledsweat » Tue. Feb. 02, 2010 10:52 am

Greg nailed it. To assume a superior material translates into a superior product is ludicrous. An analogy, gold should be used in electrical applications instead of copper. Epic fail right there.

 
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Post by BigBarney » Thu. Feb. 04, 2010 1:07 pm

Coalrunner:

If you need to cut cast iron a modern factory would use an abrasive

water cutter which will slice through even 6-8" cast iron like a hot

knife through butter.Cast iron has a large cost disadvantage to

steel fabrications in modern industry,so is used for very limited

uses in special applications.Steel is available today in the proper

formulations to be used for stove or furnace applications.

BigBarney


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