Smart Energy Plan

Smart Energy Plan

PostBy: coalkirk On: Mon Sep 08, 2008 7:34 am

In response to the drill or not to drill debate I'd thought I'd start this thread. The next adminsistration whomever it turns out to be, needs to launch a comprehensive new energy policy that includes all known resources and a manhattan type project to bring new sources and methods online. Of course we should drill! We will not be off of oil for the near term. Al Gore says and many of his diciples think we can be on all wind and solar in 10 years. Not possible or feasable. Just more lieing crap from Gore. Does wind and solar have to be a part of our energy future. You bet. But it is not going to replace oil. I like Pickens plan as far as it goes. Use massive wind farms in the great plains to generate electricity, use natural gas to fuel our cars. Drill now in Anwar, offshore and everywhere else we can. all of these are bridges until we can develope renewable fuels, and or have tecnological breakthroughs that will replace oil. Pickens thing is these are existing sources and tecnology and we should do it now, including drilling. Conservation needs to be a major part of our new policy. Homes can be made much more energy efficient and huge reductions could be made by making existing homes more energy efficient. Tax incentives can drive that. New windows, insulation and caulking can make a significant difference in older homes energy use. Mandated efficiencies in our furnaces and boilers should be implemented like they've had in Germany for a decade. your system gets inspected there just like the emmisions inspection on our cars here. If your system isn't up to snuff, it gets repaired or replaced with one that is.
On a personal level,we have all implemented our own energy policies by chosing coal. I don't burn a drop of oil anymore to heat my home. My pickup is a diesel and that is problematic. It will no doubt be my last. I've installed an amish clothes line and my wife loves it. We don't run the washer or dishwasher until there is a full load. I've replaced lighting with energy efficient type. All my windows have been replaced and I've insulated my home to current standards. That was no easy task as my 1950's home had no insulation in the walls. I just completed last year gutting and redoing the last two bedrooms. Allowed me to rewire, update duct work (hi/low returns) and add R15 in a the 2x4 walls. Ceilings are R38. If I could afford photovotaic soalr panels, I would do it but that is currently too pricey for me. OK, end of rant. DRILL DAMNIT
coalkirk
 
Stoker Coal Boiler: Harman VF3000
Coal Size/Type: antrhcite/rice coal

Re: Smart Energy Plan

PostBy: Freddy On: Mon Sep 08, 2008 7:58 am

In my opinion: Some valid points, but not all.

Last things first, solar electric panels will never, ever, pay for themselves. Not until electricity gets higher than a camels testicles.

There is no oil shortage. That's not opinion, that's fact. Now, back to opinion: Drilling will not lower prices. . Prices went up because we were willing to pay. Now prices are coming down because, finally, we are consuming less. This weekend the Saudies started talking about lowering production because all the tanks, boats and pipelines are getting full. Once everything is full pruduction must slow as there's no place to put it. Personally I think we have a plan.... pay the Saudi price and use that oil until it's gone, then start using our oil. WE will be the oil kings someday.
Freddy
 
Stoker Coal Boiler: Axeman Anderson 130 (pea)
Hot Air Coal Stoker Stove: Reading piece o' junk in the barn (rice)
Coal Size/Type: Pea size, Superior, deep mined

Re: Smart Energy Plan

PostBy: Devil505 On: Mon Sep 08, 2008 8:11 am

coalkirk wrote:The next adminsistration whomever it turns out to be, needs to launch a comprehensive new energy policy that includes all known resources and a manhattan type project to bring new sources and methods online. Of course we should drill!



I agree with you Terry &, more importantly, all parties now do. (Even the Democrats have been forced (through political pressure) to include more drilling as part a the comprehensive new energy policy you speak of)
The problem with the drilling argument, as I see it, is that those who are really pushing it are making it sound like the drilling itself is more than just the very small part of an overall energy plan & exaggerates both more drilling's ultimate cost savings & speed with which it can have an effect.. It is basically a political tactic for for election eve political purposes. A you say, we need to implement a "comprehensive new energy policy" , not just more election eve rhetoric! ( & I don't feel the oil industry can be trusted to lead the way to get us off a dependency their product, do you? ;) )
Last edited by Devil505 on Mon Sep 08, 2008 11:27 am, edited 4 times in total.
Devil505
 
Stove/Furnace Make: Harman
Stove/Furnace Model: TLC-2000


Re: Smart Energy Plan

PostBy: Richard S. On: Mon Sep 08, 2008 8:13 am

I think it's always been on the table, it just need a kick start such as the energy situation now to put it on the fast track. Now their is economic incentive and the investors have a reason to invest. I agree wholeheartedly and said much the same in other posts, we need to use everything at our disposal until this goal is accomplished whether it's drilling, nukes, or coal. My point is I think by trying to push this through they are gambling with this countries future. As I've asked before, what if it fails?

The Manhattan Project and the Moon Shot which this is often compared too were both gambles too. They paid off well but that doesn't mean this will.

coalkirk wrote:Mandated efficiencies in our furnaces and boilers should be implemented like they've had in Germany for a decade. your system gets inspected there just like the emmisions inspection on our cars here.


That is one thing i will not agree with, too much government intrusion. Going to cost people money and usually the one's that can afford it the least. Plus... I forsee some giant bureaucracy such as the "emission" testing here that basically tests a $3 gas cap for $40...
Richard S.
 
Stoker Coal Boiler: Van Wert VA1200
Coal Size/Type: Buckwheat/Anthracite

Re: Smart Energy Plan

PostBy: Devil505 On: Mon Sep 08, 2008 8:25 am

Richard S. wrote:My point is I think by trying to push this through they are gambling with this countries future. As I've asked before, what if it fails?



I don't see an alternative to trying????
At a minimum it will create many new jobs here in the U.S. & provide at least some new energy sources. What do we have to lose by trying?
Devil505
 
Stove/Furnace Make: Harman
Stove/Furnace Model: TLC-2000

Re: Smart Energy Plan

PostBy: Adamiscold On: Mon Sep 08, 2008 8:30 am

They are using the excuse that the whole reason oil and gas prices are going down is because we are consuming less, but that's a crock! Prices started coming down in August our biggest month of the year for consuming gas with everyone on vacation. Gas went up almost a whole dollar before people started buying less gas? http://tonto.eia.doe.gov/dnav/pet/pet_p ... pgal_a.htm So if a barrel of oil can drop almost 50% because we started consuming less, then we can expect it to climb up 50% when we start using more? When at what time of the year will we start consuming more oil then we are right now? Before the end of last year heating oil climbed $.80 since the previous heating season(2007) and was up about a $1.75 before the end of last years heating season(2008) http://tonto.eia.doe.gov/dnav/pet/pet_p ... _nus_m.htm.

I all honesty we don't control the oil prices because if we did it would be a hell of a lot cheaper because we use more the 60% of all the oil in the world and as everyone knows you pay less in bulk unless it's oil.
Adamiscold
 
Stove/Furnace Make: Chubby Sr. Old School

Re: Smart Energy Plan

PostBy: billw On: Mon Sep 08, 2008 8:31 am

Once everything is full pruduction must slow as there's no place to put it. Personally I think we have a plan.... pay the Saudi price and use that oil until it's gone, then start using our oil. WE will be the oil kings someday.


Freddy, I met an economics professor from one of our local universities who came from Egypt. This is exactly her take on what the U.S. is doing, using foreign oil first and saving ours for later. Geez, your pretty smart, and have a lot of cool tools. :)
billw
 
Stove/Furnace Make: EFM 520
Stove/Furnace Model: GOODBYE OIL COMPANY

Re: Smart Energy Plan

PostBy: Devil505 On: Mon Sep 08, 2008 8:40 am

Adamiscold wrote:They are using the excuse that the whole reason oil and gas prices are going down is because we are consuming less, but that's a crock!


Agreed Adam!!

With hurricane after hurricane storming through the Caribbean, what could possibly be driving energy prices down so inexplicably & quickly ? :gee: :lol: :devil:
Last edited by Devil505 on Mon Sep 08, 2008 11:29 am, edited 3 times in total.
Devil505
 
Stove/Furnace Make: Harman
Stove/Furnace Model: TLC-2000

Re: Smart Energy Plan

PostBy: billw On: Mon Sep 08, 2008 8:43 am

It's election time. It happened right before the 2006 election also. Devil, a guy I work with thinks like you. He kept telling me oil was going to go down before the 06 election so I paid attention. Sure enough, it did. I'm not a conspiracy theorist but it sure was coincidental.
billw
 
Stove/Furnace Make: EFM 520
Stove/Furnace Model: GOODBYE OIL COMPANY

Re: Smart Energy Plan

PostBy: Devil505 On: Mon Sep 08, 2008 8:46 am

billw wrote:t's election time. It happened right before the 2006 election also. Devil, a guy I work with thinks like you. He kept telling me oil was going to go down before the 06 election so I paid attention. Sure enough, it did. I'm not a conspiracy theorist but it sure was coincidental.


I think we need to get back on topic before Richard locks the thread bill, but I agree!
Devil505
 
Stove/Furnace Make: Harman
Stove/Furnace Model: TLC-2000

Re: Smart Energy Plan

PostBy: Richard S. On: Mon Sep 08, 2008 9:23 am

Devil505 wrote:I don't see an alternative to trying????


Neither do I Devil but I don't see the point of putting all your eggs in one basket. If someone, ohhh let's say a presidential candidate, has a plan to force these technologies through the system in 10 years with nothing of significance toback it up and said paln fails then we are all going to be up the proverbial "*censored* creek".
Richard S.
 
Stoker Coal Boiler: Van Wert VA1200
Coal Size/Type: Buckwheat/Anthracite

Re: Smart Energy Plan

PostBy: Devil505 On: Mon Sep 08, 2008 9:34 am

Richard S. wrote:Neither do I Devil but I don't see the point of putting all your eggs in one basket.



I think we are all agreed on not " putting all your eggs in one basket." As Terry says, we need to push any & all energy sources to hopefully gain energy independence. (It's really amazing to me that we managed to split the atom in the early 1940's but that we have been unable to effectively & cheaply harness nuclear energy better in over 60 years!)
It seems to me that if we take the "Shotgun" approach to energy, something is bound to start to stand out as more promising than the others. Oil simply has to go as the basis of our economy!
I think we members of this forum are way ahead of our countrymen in pursuit of getting off oil! How about a little help, even if done temporarily until "cleaner" sources are developed? (Tax incentives, etc)

If I was President, I would push for tax incentives for any type of alternatives from oil until such things as hydrogen fuel is available.....(Vote for me on 11/4!! :) :devil:
Devil505
 
Stove/Furnace Make: Harman
Stove/Furnace Model: TLC-2000

Re: Smart Energy Plan

PostBy: 4tees On: Mon Sep 08, 2008 10:07 am

Sometimes the simple solution has the best payback...Solar air heating. Photovoltaics are great but with payback periods of a decade(s) doesn't cut it.

Solar air heaters are something that people have been playing with since the 50's. Simple glazed boxes with a snap-disk controller starting a fan. There is a company that makes these with recycled tin cans. Imagine if the government would invest a little of that oil money in this simple technology. Solar air heaters coupled with a heat storage medium can provide most of our daytime and with storage nighttime heating needs.

Do some searches on Solar Air Heaters / Solar closets ... Seems too simple? Granted we may need to put a solar heat capture facade on our homes or a solar air heater roof. But I am sure with a little engineering know how that they could make these blend into our homes.
4tees
 
Stove/Furnace Make: Leisure Line
Stove/Furnace Model: Hyfire II with hot air jacket

Re: Smart Energy Plan

PostBy: gambler On: Mon Sep 08, 2008 10:50 am

Devil505 wrote:It seems to me that if we take the "Shotgun" approach to energy, something is bound to start to stand out as more promising than the others.


Did you ever point a shotgun into a flock of birds flying over and pull the trigger? Do you know what happens? You would think that there would be a bunch of dead birds laying around but usually you don't even manage to get one. Even using a shotgun you must take aim at a specific target.
gambler
 
Stove/Furnace Make: Leisure Line
Stove/Furnace Model: Pioneer

Re: Smart Energy Plan

PostBy: Adamiscold On: Mon Sep 08, 2008 11:18 am

Freddy, to answer your other thread and to stay with this one there are companies investing in Solar and wind to produce electricity.

http://www.engadget.com/2007/07/09/cali ... olar-farm/

http://www.engadget.com/2008/06/24/shar ... ga-plants/

http://www.engadget.com/2008/08/18/two- ... alifornia/

For everyone; Look up solar or wind on http://www.engadget.com/ and you'll find lots of technologies out there to cut the cost's for solar panels that are still in the early stages, or stuff just created at schools waiting to be pursued in the real world We need the president to follow through with these and to help push us in the next step to get away from oil. Here in Mass with rebates http://dsireusa.org/ one could get 3-4 Kw system for about the price one would pay for in a five year period for a new car or truck that would be giving back to you for the next 20-25 years. Mass-Saves even offers up to 10k for 7 years with 0% interest for Solar Water Heat.

Home Power Magazine http://www.homepower.com/ has a lot of great information and while worth the price for anyone who may be interesting in seeing what is out there and how every day people are doing it.

Planet Green
http://planetgreen.discovery.com/
This link is broken, either the page no longer exists or there is some other issue like a typo.
is Discoveries new green channel offering lots of green things going on in the world. I loving watching Renovation Nation
http://planetgreen.discovery.com/tv/renovation-nation/
This link is broken, either the page no longer exists or there is some other issue like a typo.
with Steve Thomas he was great back when he was on This Old House. They show lots of great things people are doing to go green across this great country of ours. Of course the HD version of the channel is best and is available on Direct TV :)

For anyone that may be interested http://nesea.org/buildings/openhouse/ is having a Green Buildings Open House on October 8th for people to see different technologies being used by companies and residential homes.
Adamiscold
 
Stove/Furnace Make: Chubby Sr. Old School


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