EFM on a generator

Re: EFM on a generator

PostBy: CapeCoaler On: Sun Aug 23, 2009 1:12 pm

My own belief is that all connections to the power company need to be isolated when running your own power.
If someone/something causes the neutral to be energized, Murphy is always around, then someone will get a surprise/killed!
I have seen crazy stuff done by homeowners. :shock:
Many people think a Neutral and Ground have similar functions because they see the bare/green and the white wire bonded at some point.
CapeCoaler
 
Stoker Coal Boiler: want AA130
Hand Fed Coal Stove: DS Machine BS#4, Harman MKII, Hitzer 503,...
Coal Size/Type: Pea/Nut/Stove

Re: EFM on a generator

PostBy: buickanddeere On: Sun Aug 23, 2009 4:51 pm

Poconoeagle wrote:If people are capable of using common sense and follow instructions .......


You are mostly interested in proving to the world of your Super Hero status. Of how you are smarter and more skilled than the average peon, capable of feats of daring without harm.
Do the world a favour and keep your jackleg electrical advice to your self.
Do you really think that other people with a cheap streak and typical home owner skills. Can read your directions off the internet and get the connections and order of operation correct? Are you going to able to sleep at night knowing you killed,maimed and caused property damage?
Why do you think there are many rules and regulations in place from so many agencies against hillybilly connections.
A four pole transfer switch is required with a portable generator with a bonded neutral connection on a 120/240 service. A three pole transfer switch is required with a portable generator with an open neutral connection on a 120/240 service.
Double ended male/male cords are nothing but a hazard.
Any idea how many times experts who have been careful have backfeed utility lines and/or smoked generators?
Complete and total fool from the shallow end of the gene pool. I worry that you been allowed to breed and pass on the defects before inadvertently killing yourself first.
buickanddeere
 

Re: EFM on a generator

PostBy: JB Sparks On: Sun Aug 23, 2009 5:03 pm

I understand the concern about the Neutral wire being disconnected along with the ungrounded wires in a generator hook up. So, here is what the electrical code says about it. Article 705.20 states "Disconnecting Means, Sources. Means shall be provided to disconnect all ungrounded conductors of an electric power production sourse(s) from all other conductors". The key words here are Ungrounded conductors, no mention of grounded or neutral conductor here. That and the fact that when you buy manual or automatic transfer equipment it only allows for the disconection of the ungrounded wires.

Just my opinion, I didn't sleep at a Holiday Inn last night but, I have been doing this stuff for over thirty years now.

Hope this will help everyone - Jeff
JB Sparks
 
Stove/Furnace Make: Harman - Chubby
Stove/Furnace Model: Harman: SF160 - Chubby Sr.

Re: EFM on a generator

PostBy: coaledsweat On: Sun Aug 23, 2009 5:41 pm

buickanddeere wrote:A four pole transfer switch is required with a portable generator with a bonded neutral connection on a 120/240 service.
A three pole transfer switch is required with a portable generator with an open neutral connection on a 120/240 service.

Please explain the difference between the bonded and open neutral and if and why this correlates to how the generator is wound/sine?
coaledsweat
 
Stoker Coal Boiler: Axeman Anderson 260M
Coal Size/Type: Pea

Re: EFM on a generator

PostBy: buickanddeere On: Sun Aug 23, 2009 9:16 pm

coaledsweat wrote:
buickanddeere wrote:A four pole transfer switch is required with a portable generator with a bonded neutral connection on a 120/240 service.
A three pole transfer switch is required with a portable generator with an open neutral connection on a 120/240 service.

Please explain the difference between the bonded and open neutral and if and why this correlates to how the generator is wound/sine?


Prevents the ground from becoming an path for neutral current and thus raising grounded equipment above true earth potential.
It would take 1/2 a day and practical lab examples to demonstrate to many technical persons for them to perhapes understand. Many good technical people out there who can weld, build structures, do millwright work etc. However set them to work with electricity that you can't (shouldn't) see, hear or feel. And the person can not "see" the circuit in their minds.
It's not how the generator is wound, it's if the neutral is bonded to chassis and/or earth.

b&d
buickanddeere
 

Re: EFM on a generator

PostBy: Yanche On: Sun Aug 23, 2009 9:20 pm

There are electrical code listed devices that allow back feeding of residential generator power via existing wiring. I can't find the literature right now, but the products do exist. The device is an accessory sheet metal plate that mounts on your main circuit breaker panel and encloses the main disconnect lever arm. In effect it's determining the position of the main disconnect switch, ON or OFF. Then by some sort of lever arm it's linked to a switch that allows the generator power to flow to the house wiring. ONLY when the main circuit breaker is in the OFF position will the linkage allow the generator switch to be in the ON position. They are available for many brands and models of main circuit breaker panels. I'll keep looking for the literature and post it when I find it.
Yanche
 
Stoker Coal Boiler: Alternate Heating Systems S-130
Coal Size/Type: Anthracite Pea

Re: EFM on a generator

PostBy: Wood'nCoal On: Sun Aug 23, 2009 9:23 pm

Complete and total fool from the shallow end of the gene pool. I worry that you been allowed to breed and pass on the defects before inadvertently killing yourself first.


Please remember this is supposed to be a friendly forum. I can understand you being annoyed when you read such things, you probably see it all the time, but the personal attack is unnecessary in my opinion.

It would take 1/2 a day and practical lab examples to demonstrate to many technical persons for them to perhapes understand.


Please try to explain it to us. The people here all have varying degrees of skill. I would like to hear it explained.
Last edited by Wood'nCoal on Sun Aug 23, 2009 9:54 pm, edited 1 time in total.
Wood'nCoal
 
Stoker Coal Boiler: 1959 EFM 350
Hand Fed Coal Stove: Harman Magnafire Mark I
Coal Size/Type: Rice and Chestnut
Other Heating: Fisher Fireplace Insert

Re: EFM on a generator

PostBy: Poconoeagle On: Sun Aug 23, 2009 9:34 pm

buickanddeere wrote:
Poconoeagle wrote:If people are capable of using common sense and follow instructions .......


You are mostly interested in proving to the world of your Super Hero status. Of how you are smarter and more skilled than the average peon, capable of feats of daring without harm.
Do the world a favour and keep your jackleg electrical advice to your self.
Do you really think that other people with a cheap streak and typical home owner skills. Can read your directions off the internet and get the connections and order of operation correct? Are you going to able to sleep at night knowing you killed,maimed and caused property damage?
Why do you think there are many rules and regulations in place from so many agencies against hillybilly connections.
A four pole transfer switch is required with a portable generator with a bonded neutral connection on a 120/240 service. A three pole transfer switch is required with a portable generator with an open neutral connection on a 120/240 service.
Double ended male/male cords are nothing but a hazard.
Any idea how many times experts who have been careful have backfeed utility lines and/or smoked generators?
Complete and total fool from the shallow end of the gene pool. I worry that you been allowed to breed and pass on the defects before inadvertently killing yourself first.


E S A D ;) Mister 15 posts and a wizzard :P are you a lawyer on your second job??? ;)
Poconoeagle
 
Stove/Furnace Make: Buckwalter & Co. , EFM520
Stove/Furnace Model: No. 28 Glenwood 1880, Alaska

Re: EFM on a generator

PostBy: buickanddeere On: Mon Aug 24, 2009 12:15 am

It's that guilt complex thing :cry: .
I have to at least try and keep people from getting hurt or killed from BAD advice. Somebody who was going to purchase a transfer switch is now going to try and "make do". With obscure internet directions in a trade they are unfamiliar with and lack the proper tools, materials or experience.
Favorite one of mine was finding a 120V domestic well pump on a damp floor. Powered from a two wire/two prong extension cord. Depending on which way it was plugged in, there was either 0V or 120V on the motor case/pump body to earth.They also thought ground and neutral were identical.
Trying to keep a wife from loosing a husband, parents from loosing a son and kids from loosing their Dad. Sooner or later it's going to happen with these jackleg wanna be electricians making hillbilly backfeed wiring connections without a proper transfer switch.
How many posts does it take on a coal forum for an electrician to notice a significant error in electrical advice from a tinkerer?
There is a dangerous train of thought out there and goes as such. "It works, it has to be ok". An entire house could be wired with barbed wire and porcelain fence insulators and everything could be made to work "normally". Would it be correct?
buickanddeere
 

Re: EFM on a generator

PostBy: Poconoeagle On: Mon Aug 24, 2009 10:06 am

I didnt realize i would be sharing my thoughts with such a talanted Handyman.....
one who's mission is to save the world from themselves, what an honor...and french canadian to boot
Poconoeagle
 
Stove/Furnace Make: Buckwalter & Co. , EFM520
Stove/Furnace Model: No. 28 Glenwood 1880, Alaska

Re: EFM on a generator

PostBy: Wood'nCoal On: Mon Aug 24, 2009 10:17 am

Pocono, I have a chair here I want you to try out...
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:nana:
Wood'nCoal
 
Stoker Coal Boiler: 1959 EFM 350
Hand Fed Coal Stove: Harman Magnafire Mark I
Coal Size/Type: Rice and Chestnut
Other Heating: Fisher Fireplace Insert

Re: EFM on a generator

PostBy: coaledsweat On: Mon Aug 24, 2009 10:19 am

Please, enough of the back handed compliments. Let us stick to the subject of the thread.

Unfortunatly, that may include a saftey disclaimer for advice posted by other members. That is how this forum works, we are here to exchange ideas, not insults.

A little comedy now and then does't hurt, thanks W'nC I needed that. :)
Is that Old Sparky?
coaledsweat
 
Stoker Coal Boiler: Axeman Anderson 260M
Coal Size/Type: Pea

Re: EFM on a generator

PostBy: Wood'nCoal On: Mon Aug 24, 2009 10:21 am

You're welcome. :D

Old Sparky:
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Wood'nCoal
 
Stoker Coal Boiler: 1959 EFM 350
Hand Fed Coal Stove: Harman Magnafire Mark I
Coal Size/Type: Rice and Chestnut
Other Heating: Fisher Fireplace Insert

Re: EFM on a generator

PostBy: Poconoeagle On: Mon Aug 24, 2009 10:28 am

I agree coldsweat and as e alleg did say with his bold comment in the 4th post of this thread....
" This is critical, before you do anything shut off the main breaker. If you forget you can kill a line worker or back feed to your neighbors. Don't forget, stick a note on your generator do something just don't forget no matter what to shut off the main breaker" :!:
Poconoeagle
 
Stove/Furnace Make: Buckwalter & Co. , EFM520
Stove/Furnace Model: No. 28 Glenwood 1880, Alaska

Re: EFM on a generator

PostBy: SMITTY On: Mon Aug 24, 2009 10:28 am

I've wired up every system in my house without killing or maiming anyone. I have a generator switch wired up safely -- it is completely isolated from the outside line & the 2 are impossible to connect, the way it's wired. I have no training whatsoever on anything electrical, with the exception of 12V DC systems in motor vehicles. I know how to check for floating or bonded neutral in a gen set. I have the common sense to know the difference & NOT to take everything on the net as gospel. Everyone is different.
SMITTY
 
Stoker Coal Boiler: Patriot Coal - custom built by Jim Dorsey
Hand Fed Coal Stove: Harman Mark III (not currently in use)
Coal Size/Type: Rice / Blaschak anthracite
Other Heating: Oil fired Burnham boiler