Socialist America

Re: Socialist America

PostBy: efo141 On: Sat Oct 11, 2008 8:00 pm

Are you sure about that or did you hear that from Rush Limblab
Last edited by efo141 on Sat Oct 11, 2008 9:24 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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Re: Socialist America

PostBy: Pallmalled On: Sat Oct 11, 2008 9:21 pm

i agree. Impose term limits through our vote! :x
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Re: Socialist America

PostBy: Pallmalled On: Sat Oct 11, 2008 9:41 pm

We speak as though we are enemies. We are all Americans with great pride regardless of the blunders our elected officials push off. Vote the way you will, give the benefit of the doubt and eventually we will be joining hands in the next REVOLUTION.
Cling to your guns and religion boys we are gonna need them.
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Re: Socialist America

PostBy: vtec350 On: Sat Oct 11, 2008 11:16 pm

efo141 wrote:Are you sure about that or did you hear that from Rush Limblab



Sorry, I don't listen to Rush and unlike some, I form my own opinions

When it looks like *censored*
smells like *censored*
it's usually *censored*

Remeber a few years back when Bush wanted to let the Saudies bid on our ports, and everyone jumped all over him because we are fightng a war on terror and he wanted to let them control our ports??

Now, some want to put a guy in office who has know ties to terrorist and a lot of SHADY friends ??? :hammer: :wtf: :wtf:
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Re: Socialist America

PostBy: Devil505 On: Sat Oct 11, 2008 11:32 pm

vtec350 wrote:Now, some want to put a guy in office who has know ties to terrorist and a lot of SHADY friends ??? :hammer: :wtf: :wtf:


Come on Dave....You can do better than veiled innuendo. Tell us what we need to really fear from Obama?
What are his terrorist plans?
Does he want to be elected President to do harm to our country? (if so,specifically how?)
Is Joe Biden part of his gang?
Who else is in on this?
Is my guy (Ron Paul) a terrorist too?
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Re: Socialist America

PostBy: djackman On: Sun Oct 12, 2008 2:04 am

swva wrote:That's exactly what I mean, but it depends also on what you mean as "personal freedoms". Some personal freedoms cannot transcend the laws of morality ... some things are non-negotiable. True conservatives are few and far between in today's Congress.

Yes, certain universal moral codes apply across all civilizations - problem is some like to push their personal moral beliefs upon others.
swva wrote:think it's also safe to say that Jefferson was athiest, or agnostic at the very least, but even he knew the dangers of government interfering with the right of all Americans to practice religion as they see fit. There is a reason why the 2nd Amendment was added to the Bill of Rights, and protection of our freedom of religion was a big part of that.

Again I agree on the government not restricting any religion or practice thereof. But it has to be a two way street; the government should not create policy based on religious morals that exceed common/shared morals. The Blue Laws are a good example of what happens. Does the trend of repeal or lessening of them in certain states make the people of those states less "moral"?

djackman wrote:I'm aware of the religious interpretation of the 2nd Ammendment, but I tend to take things at face value.

swva wrote:This is why there is so much disagreement. Liberals like to call the Constitution a "living, breathing document", bending it and shaping it to match their ideology. No where did the framers of the Constitution say that as society evolves so should the Constitution. They never thought men would become so immoral in the future and thought it'd never be interpreted for anything more than what it is. As someone who's pro-gun, you can surely agree that the 2nd Amendment applies to all Americans and not just the military, as some liberals are now trying to persuade us to think?

The amendment process is for "updating" the Constitution - Prohibition as an example of something that was not defined in the original constitution yet was added and then repealed. The 2nd amendment couldn't have been worded worse for such a important subject. It could mean individual ownership for the purpose of maintaining a state regulated Militia or, the right of states to maintain a Militia and the right for people to own guns for any purpose. Either way it provides citizens the right to own guns. The legal use of guns can be debated, but there are plenty of laws against murder.

swva wrote:Gay marriage: in all the years that man has existed on this earth, there has never been gay marriage, but some in our society want it to be law now ... does that make it moral? The fact that, historically, gay marriage was not part of the mores of a society means that some level of moral precedence has been established. Precedence is surely something liberals will appreciate, since they use the precedence argument in Supreme Court cases all the time, right?

Gay marriage has always been a religious issue. Sexual orientation has zip to do with someone's character, their patriotism, or their morals. If the objection is that "Marriage" can only define a union between a man and a woman then allow a "legal union" - whatever affords them the same legal rights as a straight couple as it hurts no one except insurance companies and some people's views. I do not agree with the view that gays are out to "convert" children -there are perverts on both sides of the team, both deserve equal punishment.

djackman wrote:What's your solution? I'd like to hear from someone who realizes "none of the above" is the answer.

swva wrote:I think the only power that we have to end the corruption and have accountability on Capitol Hill is to vote out the incumbent in all Congressional elections, and keep the checks and balances in place by making sure the no party has control of Congress and the White House at the same time. In conditions like today's, a little gridlock may be a good thing.

Absolute power corrupts absolutely. Some seem to be grasping the concept that neither current party can do any good but the electorate needs to lift themselves out of the "American Idol" election buzzword mindset for there to be a viable 3rd (or more) party. Mabye 4 years of Social welfare can balance out 8 years of Corporate welfare - either way it goes it'll be a rocky ride for the next few years.
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Re: Socialist America

PostBy: swva On: Sun Oct 12, 2008 2:06 am

efo141 wrote:Are you sure about that or did you hear that from Rush Limblab


Rush is part of the Republican machine ... I don't like the guy. I don't like anyone who is part of the machine because they are not true Conservatives. The machine promotes who they think are "electible" and not those who are best qualified for the Office.
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Re: Socialist America

PostBy: mikeandgerry On: Sun Oct 12, 2008 3:17 am

swva wrote:
djackman wrote:The government should not be in the business of legislating morality in a religious context.


You're right because that'd make our government a theocracy, however legislating morality from a historical context based on long standing traditions and heritage is quite acceptable. Issues of laws regarding morality should be left up to the people themselves through referendum instead of letting the 'tail wag the dog'. Let the constituents decide it for themselves, by ballot.


djackman wrote:What two consenting adults do in their bedroom is no concern of mine or the government's.


agreed ... it's none of their business, but when it is pushed on our kindergarteners in an attempt to desensitize them, then that's a different story altogether.



djackman wrote:There should be a 100% separation of church and state, period.

Nowhere in the Constitution is there mention of a "separation of church and state", and if you read Jefferson's correspondance in which this phrase is mentioned, it was said with the meaning of protecting the church from the government so that government couldn't restrict individuals from religious freedoms they had the God given right to. That's one of the reasons our ancestors set sail for this land in the first place ... the aristocracy decided there was only one way a person could worship and everything else was witchcraft or what not. Liberals like to spin this and use it to their advantage saying that the government is promoting a religion by allowing the Ten Commandments (a historical artifact/document) to be displayed or by allowing our school children to recite the Pledge of Allegiance because it has the word "God" in it, and etc.

Liberals like to preach about tolerance but they have no tolerance for anything that doesn't line up with their ideology. When someone pulls the separation of church and state card, what they are really saying is "Let's have immoral parades in the streets and show off our sexuality to the whole world ... let's call abortion a woman's right to privacy ... let's call Christmas the 'Winter holiday' .... let's make the next generation of Americans just like us by pushing the Cross out of the eye of the public ... let's make the next generation just like us by telling our children we came from a mud puddle and let them hear no other ideas of our origins so they can decide for themselves .... let's keep those who disagree with us from speaking publicly at our colleges by enciting violent disruptions and keep those speakers from being heard ... let's shutdown the church by passing legislation that makes it a crime of hate to say 'homosexuality is immoral' from the pulpit of churches or when a church refuses to marry couples of the same sex within their church ... let's allow our liberal ideas to flourish on college campuses, but let's supress the ideas of those who disagree with us ... let's make the next generation just like us by pushing the Christian God so far out of society that they'll never have the chance to know who He is". The level of intolerance of liberals who preach tolerance themselves is essentially hypocrisy and facism. Hitler and the communists of the world liked to silence those who disagreed with them too and we saw what that leads to. Dare I say most conservatives are more tolerant and more rational than most liberals on issues of morality are religion?


djackman wrote:What do you call nationalization of private business' ?


I'm not sure I quite understand what you mean. If you mean the government interfering with private business to level that it supresses a business' growth by taxing it to death in order to fund their liberal agendas, then I'd call this socialism and communism to varying degrees.


I'm glad that we agree there is no one to vote for this fall ;) ... they're both as corrupt as can be and are not capable of straightening out this economy.



WOW! Exactly what I was going to say.....we must be soul mates!
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Re: Socialist America

PostBy: vtec350 On: Sun Oct 12, 2008 9:33 am

Devil505 wrote:Come on Dave....You can do better than veiled innuendo. Tell us what we need to really fear from Obama?


Dick, I guess everyone sees things different, glass half full or half empty. Me, being cynical :P , usually look for the worst and hope for the best. I can't find 1 good thing about this guy. The people he's associated with are either "shady" or extreme racist Bill Ayers, Rev. Wright, Farrakhan, etc...that usually tells a lot about a person who they hang around with. Remember the old saying " You can't chose your family, but you can chose your friends" I think a persons past, friends,and associates starts to paint a picture of that person. No, you can't hold everything aganst a person that they did in their past, but we are talking about a politiiain here :lol:

Devil505 wrote:Does he want to be elected President to do harm to our country? (if so,specifically how?)


That's a conspiracy theory of its own :D :lol:

Devil505 wrote:Is Joe Biden part of his gang?


I don't know much about Joe, Honestly I'm not much of a political person, but this years more important than ever and I'm trying to read and learn as much as possible on both candidates. I've never like any of them, they're only out for themself and their buddies best interest, not ours :mad:

Devil505 wrote:Is my guy (Ron Paul) a terrorist too?



No Way, I would love to see Ron Paul elected,OMG, we agree on something :cheers: . I've been saying since the spring he would be the best man for the job. Sadly, he doesn't have a chance and there's still so many people who've never heard of him, again our bias medias fault. I feel a vote for him is throwing your vote away for Obama.
I don't like a lot of McCains plans either, especially reducing home owners principal to todays market value :wtf: you're telling them it's ok to be irresponsible, buy behond your means, and now we will come and bail you ass out ! I don't have a problem reducing their interest rates to where they were when they signed the loan, keeping the principal the same and maybe giving them longer terms on the loan, say 35-40 years to make the payments more affordable. Let them pay for their mistakes, no one gave us any reduced principal and reduced interest rates. I've worked the several years 6-7 days a week while construction was booming just so I could pay off my mortgage, save some money and do the things our parents taught us to do. Now they are going to bail out all these home owners and companys on our dime. :mad:
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Re: Socialist America

PostBy: SAU On: Sun Oct 12, 2008 9:54 am

The Republicans want to take control of the banking system in this country and regulate it (and it does need some level of regulation now, because it is so corrupt.


This is the only point on which we seem to disagree. I think I can argue rather convincingly that the bankers control everything that the republicans and the democrats legislate.

James Madison, quotes about Rothschild:
History records that the money changers have used every form of abuse, intrigue, deceit, and violent means possible to maintain their control over governments by controlling the money and its issuance

John F. Hylan, quotes about Rothschild:
The real menace of our Republic is the invisible government which like a giant octopus sprawls its slimy legs over our cities states and nation. At the head is a small group of banking houses generally referred to as 'international bankers.' This little coterie... run our government for their own selfish ends. It operates under cover of a self-created screen...[and] seizes...our executive officers... legislative bodies... schools... courts... newspapers and every agency created for the public protection.

Carroll Quigley, quotes about Rothschild:
The powers of financial capitalism had (a) far-reaching aim, nothing less than to create a world system of financial control in private hands able to dominate the political system of each country and the economy of the world as a whole. This system was to be controlled in a feudalist fashion by the central banks of the world acting in concert, by secret agreements arrived at in frequent meetings and conferences. The apex of the systems was to be the Bank for International Settlements in Basel, Switzerland, a private bank owned and controlled by the world's central banks which were themselves private corporations. Each central bank...sought to dominate its government by its ability to control Treasury loans, to manipulate foreign exchanges, to influence the level of economic activity in the country, and to influence cooperative politicians by subsequent economic rewards in the business world.

Mayer Amschel Rothschild, quotes about Rothschild:
Give me control of a nation's money and I care not who makes the laws.

Baron Nathan Mayer Rothschild, quotes about Rothschild:
I care not what puppet is placed on the throne of England to rule the Empire, ...The man that controls Britain's money supply controls the British Empire. And I control the money supply.

Alan Greenspan, quotes about Rothschild:
In the absence of the gold standard, there is no way to protect savings from confiscation through inflation. ... This is the shabby secret of the welfare statists' tirades against gold. Deficit spending is simply a scheme for the confiscation of wealth. Gold stands in the way of this insidious process. It stands as a protector of property rights. If one grasps this, one has no difficulty in understanding the statists' antagonism toward the gold standard.

That last one was written before Greenspan fell to the dark side.


agreed ... it's none of their business, but when it is pushed on our kindergarteners in an attempt to desensitize them, then that's a different story altogether.


This is another symptom of socialization, and it was brought about by corporate giants like Andrew Carnegie. Prior to the 20th century, there were few if any public schools. People had to pay the school marm directly if they wanted their children to be educated. Today we have public schools and very little choice as to what our children will be taught because because the schools will get our tax dollars no matter what we say. Furthermore state and federal mandates dictate what will be taught in the classroom. Schools need to be very localized institutions, but don't tell that to the government.


The Pledge of Allegiance didn't have "under God" added until the early 1950's. The 1st 3 changes to the Pledge were to clarify it's original meaning, not add meaning, which "under God" does. The majority of challenges to compulsory participation in the Pledge of Allegiance revolve around the "under God" phrase -- not someone's loyalty or love of their country. Nowhere does it say you must belive in God (or a god) to be a proud American, and I would prefer the Pledge not have a religious overtone to it.


Francis Bellamy (1855 - 1931), a Baptist minister, wrote the original Pledge in August 1892. He was a Christian Socialist. In his Pledge, he is expressing the ideas of his first cousin, Edward Bellamy, author of the American socialist utopian novels, Looking Backward (1888) and Equality (1897)

http://history.vineyard.net/pledge.htm


efo141 wrote:I dont want my president waiting for a answer from God on a important decision for the country.


Nor do I. I hate when any of them inject religion and morals into politics. Would you rather to derive your rights from jackals like Bush, Klinton, Obama and McCain or a fictional entity whom the government has no power over. Would you prefer to give up your rights as we have been over the past 70 years? Do you like the fact that your children are growing up in an omnipotent police state? Or do you think that I am over the line, and that things are just peachy.

swva wrote:Gay marriage: in all the years that man has existed on this earth, there has never been gay marriage, but some in our society want it to be law now ... does that make it moral? The fact that, historically, gay marriage was not part of the mores of a society means that some level of moral precedence has been established. Precedence is surely something liberals will appreciate, since they use the precedence argument in Supreme Court cases all the time, right?


Gay marriage, I can't believe that people still argue over this stupid issue that is used by our corrupt politicians to divide and conquer. Marriage is between two people, and their god if they choose to believe in god. Tell me, why are we, as citizens mandated by the state to acquire a marriage license? Now marriage is between the state two people and their god. Why do you have to go to the state, ask permission, and pay a tax in order to marry the one you love? Those laws are socialist in and of themselves and they should all be abolished. The only reason the homos want to be able to marry is so that their spouse can collect on social programs. Gay marriage should be a completely mute argument for anyone who loves freedom. Isn't freedom what this country is supposed to be based on? Why should you give a damn about your fellow citizens personal choices so long as their choices harm no one?

What do you call nationalization of private business' ?


In the 1930's and 1940's they called national socialist Nazis
Last edited by SAU on Sun Oct 12, 2008 11:27 am, edited 5 times in total.
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Re: Socialist America

PostBy: Devil505 On: Sun Oct 12, 2008 10:00 am

vtec350 wrote:Sadly, he doesn't have a chance and there's still so many people who've never heard of him, again our bias medias fault. I feel a vote for him is throwing your vote away for Obama.


As someone who is obviously following the campaigns & struggling to pick the best candidate, you are caught between a rock & a hard place & I understand & respect that. I know I'm a broken record here, but let me try to state my position a little differently:
We can only control our own vote & have little to no control over what other people choose to do. To decide to vote for a candidate who doesn't reflect your views (John McCain), over one who does (Ron Paul) just because others will do so is the very definition of "Throwing away your vote", IMO
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Re: Socialist America

PostBy: swva On: Sun Oct 12, 2008 10:21 pm

vtec350 wrote:I think a persons past, friends,and associates starts to paint a picture of that person. No, you can't hold everything aganst a person that they did in their past, but we are talking about a politiiain here


Joe Biden thinks the past is an indication of things that are to come. In his debate with Sarah Palin he tried to tie McCain to Bush by saying "Past is Prologue". So, if we believe what Joe Biden says about past being prologue, then why should we believe Obama's future would be any different than his past when it comes to questionable friendships with people who hate this country? He'll form new and questionable friendships with the likes of Ahmadinejad of Iran, Chavez of Venezuela, the leaders of Hamas and Hezbollah. These are leaders who love the United States of America, undoubtedly ;) I bet they'll all get together and celebrate Ramadan :)

After being attacked on 9/11, it is astonishing that anyone could actually vote for Barack Hussein Obama. For any Barack Hussein Obama supporter that's called someone who voted for Bush "stupid", well I've got news for you ... you're even more stupid! You're so desperate for a Democrat that you'll vote for whoever wears the Democrat label, regardless of their past. You ignore the facts and rationalize why you should vote for this very questionable man. I guess his charm and stylish good looks make up for all his shortcomings, though. At least we'll have a vogue and cosmopolitan President ... that'll sure intimidate Al Qaeda and the Russians and every other country and terrorist group that's looking to take a shot at us when the Democrats are in control :) I'm glad I'm not so blind and so loyal to a political party that I'd vote away my soul.
Last edited by swva on Sun Oct 12, 2008 11:23 pm, edited 6 times in total.
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Re: Socialist America

PostBy: swva On: Sun Oct 12, 2008 10:23 pm

vtec350 wrote:I feel a vote for him is throwing your vote away for Obama.


Ditto! The Nader effect.
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Re: Socialist America

PostBy: swva On: Sun Oct 12, 2008 11:12 pm

SAU wrote:Why should you give a damn about your fellow citizens personal choices so long as their choices harm no one?


SAU, I agree a lot with what you said your post, but when it comes to this issue it does harm someone. It harms me and my child when I'm trying to teach him the morals I was taught as a kid and then he, as a 5 year old, has to go to school and hear about homosexuality. It's the parents job to discuss sexuality with a child. I don't mind the school teaching my kid about safe sex (when he's a teenager and not at 5 years old!!) as much as I mind them stepping in and teaching him it's ok to be gay. Nowhere in a childs' education should they ever have to hear anything about sexual orientation and sexuality. There is is just no place for this in our schools. My kid will be taught to respect everyone, regardless of how they believe or their sexual preference, but my child will also be taught that homosexuality is wrong.

SAU wrote:Gay marriage, I can't believe that people still argue over this stupid issue that is used by our corrupt politicians to divide and conquer


I'll quit arguing over it when the Democrats decide to stop trying to push it down our throats. That's not going to happen anytime soon, though. They're working all the angles ... the Democrats are trying to expand the current hate crimes legislation to include the issue of "sexual orientation". I don't know about any of you, but I've never had anyone make snide remarks to me about liking a person of the opposite sex. The purpose of adding this to the hate crimes legislation is to give the government more control over the church ... allowing any pastor, preacher, priest, imam or whatever to be charged with a hate crime if they say anything derogatory about homosexuality from the pulpit. It'll give the government the right to shut the doors on a church if its pastor preaches Leviticus 18:22. It'll give the government the right to lock the doors on any church that refuses to marry a gay couple, if and when homosexual marriages are legalized. And it will most likely result in the Bible being banned on college campuses and etc. because of the Bible's clear stance against homosexuality. Again, this is just the Democrats being the socialists that they are. I know there are good Democrats ... not all of them have this issue at the top of their to-do list, but you can bet it's right there at the top of Nancy Pelosi's and Harry Reid's to-do list, and they are the driving force behind the Democrat party ... sadly so.
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Re: Socialist America

PostBy: SAU On: Mon Oct 13, 2008 10:47 am

I'll refer you back to my second post and elaborate a little.

Regarding public schools.
This is another symptom of socialization, and it was brought about by corporate giants like Andrew Carnegie. Prior to the 20th century, there were few if any public schools. People had to pay the school marm directly if they wanted their children to be educated. Today we have public schools and very little choice as to what our children will be taught because because the schools will get our tax dollars no matter what we say. Furthermore state and federal mandates dictate what will be taught in the classroom. Schools need to be very localized institutions, but don't tell that to the government.


Our school systems are highly subsidized by the states and the feds. If the funding was kept local we would have a stronger voice in the curricula of our community schools, but with the socialist in control of the money they have control of the curricula. I would prefer a private school for my son, but it's pretty hard to get around paying for the "free" schooling offered by the state. I shudder to think about some of the tripe that is passed on to my son through these people, and I go out of my way to encourage him to be politically incorrect. For instance, his English teacher last year went on a rant about global warming (another fear inducing subject used to control the populous, and provide for further taxation IMHO), The next day he wore a t-shirt that says "Global Warming, Scaring idiots since 1995". This came from a teacher who lives in a county that produces more that 40% of the nations steam coal... Yes I said county, and yes that is forty percent. Now it may be different in San Fran Sissyco and New York City, but I can assure you that in WY we don't like our kids being taught that crap any more that you like it, but in order to get those centralized funds the schools teach whatever the socialist want.
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