Questions About the KA6

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Hollyfeld
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Post by Hollyfeld » Sat. Oct. 11, 2008 3:46 pm

This is a list of questions that I am going to ask Keystoker on monday, but I figured on posting them here to get some feedback.

1. The directions locate the circulator on the return to the boiler. Can the circulator be installed on the feed end leaving the boiler? (I see photos of people doing it here, but why does Keystoker show it on the return?)

2. What is the bypass loop doing and is it necessary? (Some photos on here show the bypass the loop with the 4006B Safety Control and some do not)

3. I would like to use my existing Boilermate for my DHW so is it ok to NOT hook up the DHW coil on the boiler? (Some have suggested preheating the water going into the boilermate so it doesnt call for heat as often. I'm not sure if I want to do this. I don't have a high demand for DHW in my house since it's basically only my girlfriend and I. But, I like having the hot water there and ready and if I'm in the shower and she puts on the laundry or dishwasher, I would hate to lose my hot water.)

4. I have 2 zones in my house, plus the boilermate which acts as a 3rd zone. Are there any problems with a zoned system using zone valves when there is a reduced volume of water?

 
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218Bee
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Post by 218Bee » Sat. Oct. 11, 2008 6:50 pm

I'm no expert and haven't been to a Holiday Inn in years, but here goes:

1) I think the Keystoker "Manual" was written, originally, on stone tablets :oops: and that was the way things were plumbed then, with the logic being that the pumps liked the lower temps. Mine works fine pumped at the supply end.

2) I think the bypass loop allows for additional adjustment of the water temp inside the boiler. You could raise the boiler temp by opening the valve, keeping more water in the boiler and less circulating through the system. I put it in my system because they appeared rather insistent on it in the manual, but as I don't use the DHW coil I think I could have done without it. I figured better to have it and not need it than need it and not have it.

3) I have a Phase III HW on its own zone (jacketed coil system-comparable to the Boilermate, I think) and we also have a low demand household. I didn't plumb the HW coil on the boiler at all. The HW heater is just another zone and gets heat whenever it calls for it. Works great.

4) My system is also 3 zone, but is controlled by circ pumps through a relay system, 2 zones (upstairs/downstairs) and the Phase III DHW. It works fine and was what I had in place, so I cant offer any comment on your situation.

Please let us know what Keystoker recommends, these are suppositions on my part (and advise gathered on this forum) so salt it heavily.

 
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Rob R.
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Post by Rob R. » Sun. Oct. 12, 2008 7:42 am

There was a time when circulators lasted longer on the return side of the boiler, that time has come and gone as today's circulators don't suffer from the same seal problems. Believe it or not, placing the circulator on the supply side was the norm on most of the first hot water boilers, it wasn't until people tried to be cheap with their radiator sizing and run their systems at higher temps that circulators on the supply side had issues with seal failure. In any case, your system will work with the circulator in either location, but there are advantages to putting in on the supply side. Search the forum for "pumping away" and read all you can find. If you want to learn more, I recommend purchasing the book "Pumping Away" by Dan Holohan.

Your boilermate should work fine all by itself, they normally have pretty fast recovery rates.

I don't understand your question about the zone valves?


 
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Hollyfeld
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Post by Hollyfeld » Tue. Oct. 14, 2008 9:37 am

I finally got hold of Keystoker and got some answers.

1. The circulator should be on the return because it is then pulling the water down into the bottom of the boiler and pushing the hot water, which is at the top of the boiler out into the system. I mentioned that I have seen installations where the pump is on the feed from the boiler, to which he replied "If you know it will work, it's your property and you can do whatever you want, but we recommend putting it on the return".

2. The By-pass is there for safety. If the water in the boiler gets above 200 degrees, it will cycle the water through the loop which will cool it. I don't know how much cooling it will get being that its not a very long loop, but he was adamant about having it.

3. It is ok to not have the DHW coil hooked up. If you want to use the boilermate, then go ahead.

4. I have to call back later this afternoon and talk to Bill (their plumber) about this one.

 
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Post by LsFarm » Tue. Oct. 14, 2008 10:06 am

I agree with member '218Bee' 100% I don't really agree with Keystoker on the pump placement..

I'm old school.. I wanted the highest pressure on the boiler [pump on the return side] because I didn't want hot spots in the boiler causing localized boiling spots.. but if you have adequate circulation, and 12 psi pressure, you shouldn't have any boiling..

There are many valid arguments to suggest that a supply side pump placement is better.. If I were to plumb a boiler system today, I'd use the supply side location.. I don't agree with all the arguements for supply side, but the ones that I think are BS or bad physics are outweighed by the valid points.. so I think that supply side is better in the long run..

The old circulator pumps had crappy seals and did not last very long, even on the return side.. new coolant-lubricated pumps last much, much longer,, many for decades in my experience..

Just go ahead and install a balance tube with a ball valve for adjusting it.. it won't hurt and may be needed.. some installs need one, many don't.

No harm from leaving the DHW coil dry... the boiler mate is a better, faster, heater and storage system.. if you end up needing more hot water,, you can always add the coil to the supply side of the boiler mate.

hope this helps. Greg L

 
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Hollyfeld
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Post by Hollyfeld » Tue. Oct. 14, 2008 3:46 pm

Here at work I have discussed this with our top HVAC/boiler designers and our boss the Engineer, and no one can figure out the need for a by-pass loop. They understand the need for the 4006B hi-limit controller, but don't see the need to put it in a loop. They said it could be installed on the feed line in a well. If there was an extra hole in the side of the boiler it could be installed there too.

Here is an interesting article from the October 1991 issue of HPAC magazine about "pumping away"

Attachments

pumping away.pdf
.PDF | 92.7KB | pumping away.pdf

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