Science, Creationism and Intelligent Design

Re: Science, Creationism and Intelligent Design

PostBy: av8r On: Sun Oct 26, 2008 9:52 pm

So you're not interested in reading the book?
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Re: Bush Vindicated... WMD's in IRAQ

PostBy: coalmeister On: Sun Oct 26, 2008 9:57 pm

ErikLaurence wrote:
av8r wrote:http://www.amazon.com/Case-Creator-Jour ... 0310241448

It's pretty dense reading and most folks I have given a copy to have never read more than a chapter or two before announcing that it is nonsense. I've read it several times and enjoy it. The author started out as an agnostic searching for the truth as best he could explain it.


You realize that's a "science" book that's written by a journalist...

Y'all shot your wad with the dover case and lost. Not only lost, but got laughed out of court by a GWB appointed judge.

Under cross examination Behe (who actually has a PhD in biochemistry) caved and said there was "there are no peer reviewed articles by anyone advocating for intelligent design supported by pertinent experiments or calculations which provide detailed rigorous accounts of how intelligent design of any biological system occurred". He was teh token scientist the ID people could find.

I'm all for faith, but don't pretend it's science.


And evolution is all science and no faith? What's your point?
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Re: Science, Creationism and Intelligent Design

PostBy: spc On: Mon Oct 27, 2008 7:46 am

A few ID proponents:

Michael Behe - Professor of biochemistry

Guillermo Gonzalez - Astrophysicist

Henry F. Schaefer, III - Computational and theoretical chemist, Professor of Chemistry

Scott A. Minnich - Professor of microbiology

William A. Dembski - Professor of Theology and Science

Bruce L. Gordon - Philosopher of science (physics), metaphysician

Dr. Muzaffar Iqbal - Chemist

Dr. Paul A. Nelson - Philosopher of science

Dr. Jeffrey M. Schwartz - Psychiatrist and researcher in the field of neuroplasticity

Alvin Plantinga - Professor of Philosophy

Caroline Crocker - Immunopharmacologist

Robert J. Marks - Professor of Electrical and Computer Engineering

Dr. Michael Egnor - Neurosurgeon

Christopher Michael Langan - "the smartest man in America" :D
Board-certified neuropsychologist Dr. Robert Novelly tested Langan's IQ & he broke the ceiling of the test, scoring "off the charts". Novelly was said to be astounded, saying: "Chris is the highest individual that I have ever measured in 25 years of doing this."

International Society for Complexity Information and Design
http://www.iscid.org/
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Re: Science, Creationism and Intelligent Design

PostBy: ErikLaurence On: Mon Oct 27, 2008 7:48 am

av8r wrote:So you're not interested in reading the book?



I'm certainly not going to pay money for it. Is it online anywhere?

Behe (who I have read, and just quoted) is source material for Strobel. So if he's just parroting Behe et al then there's no new material in the book and this is just Strobel's opinions wrapped around the same lace of evidence that lost in Dover.
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Re: Science, Creationism and Intelligent Design

PostBy: ErikLaurence On: Mon Oct 27, 2008 7:57 am

spc wrote:A few ID proponents:

Michael Behe - Professor of biochemistry



This Behe?

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Michael_Be ... _testimony

The one who under cross examination admitted that there was as much evidence for astrology as there is for ID?
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Re: Science, Creationism and Intelligent Design

PostBy: spc On: Mon Oct 27, 2008 8:01 am

Erik, Nice coal stove you have, did someone design it?
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Re: Science, Creationism and Intelligent Design

PostBy: ErikLaurence On: Mon Oct 27, 2008 8:20 am

Erik, Nice coal stove you have, did someone design it?


You bet. They based the design of coal stoves that we're in use at an earlier time.

Was your coal stove created in a puff of smoke and a bolt of lightening?
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Re: Science, Creationism and Intelligent Design

PostBy: spc On: Mon Oct 27, 2008 8:33 am

ErikLaurence wrote:You bet. They based the design of coal stoves that we're in use at an earlier time.
Yes, an Intelligent Designer. And its really just a hunk of metal . Imagine the intelligence to create the human body. I think you are coming around.

ErikLaurence wrote:Was your coal stove created in a puff of smoke and a bolt of lightening?
Wait a minute that's an evolution theory.
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Re: Science, Creationism and Intelligent Design

PostBy: kootch88 On: Mon Oct 27, 2008 9:24 am

In a November 8, 1996 interview Richard Dawkins said of Behe:

"He's a straightforward creationist. What he has done is to take a standard argument which dates back to the 19th century, the argument of irreducible complexity, the argument that there are certain organs, certain systems in which all the bits have to be there together or the whole system won't work...like the eye. Darwin answered (this)…point by point, piece by piece. But maybe he shouldn't have bothered. Maybe what he should have said is…maybe you're too thick to think of a reason why the eye could have come about by gradual steps, but perhaps you should go away and think a bit harder." Richard Dawkins on Evolution and Religion
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Re: Science, Creationism and Intelligent Design

PostBy: spc On: Mon Oct 27, 2008 10:24 am

What Behe says of Dawkins:

"Contrary to Richard Dawkins, the power to reason is indeed the greatest possible attribute of life. The only greater talent would be the ability to reason better. The priority of thought is not due to human pride; rather, it’s because reasoning is a prerequisite to understanding. It is for this spectacularly obvious reason that almost everyone except the most besotted Darwinists regards thinking as unique, as deserving of special study, as qualitatively different from and superior to any other attribute of life, perhaps even as an immaterial ability, perhaps even as pointing to something beyond nature. Now, why would a professor of the public “understanding” of anything belittle the ability to reason?" - Michael J. Behe

http://arn.org/docs/behe/mb_ancestorsta ... w_0506.htm
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Re: Science, Creationism and Intelligent Design

PostBy: av8r On: Mon Oct 27, 2008 10:43 am

ErikLaurence wrote:
av8r wrote:So you're not interested in reading the book?



I'm certainly not going to pay money for it. Is it online anywhere?

Behe (who I have read, and just quoted) is source material for Strobel. So if he's just parroting Behe et al then there's no new material in the book and this is just Strobel's opinions wrapped around the same lace of evidence that lost in Dover.


Would you answer the question?

Does anyone else see the irony here?
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Re: Science, Creationism and Intelligent Design

PostBy: kootch88 On: Mon Oct 27, 2008 11:23 am

"Contrary to Richard Dawkins, the power to reason is indeed the greatest possible attribute of life. The only greater talent would be the ability to reason better. The priority of thought is not due to human pride; rather, it’s because reasoning is a prerequisite to understanding. It is for this spectacularly obvious reason that almost everyone except the most besotted Darwinists regards thinking as unique, as deserving of special study, as qualitatively different from and superior to any other attribute of life, perhaps even as an immaterial ability, perhaps even as pointing to something beyond nature. Now, why would a professor of the public “understanding” of anything belittle the ability to reason?" - Michael J. Behe


He is definitely in the minority along with the short list of other scientists posted earlier. Though Dawkins is an Atheist, many scientists are not atheitsts. Darwin was not an Atheist, Copernicus of course was not and nearly every single scientist of note was religious. Just becuase most scientists do not beleive in ID does not mean they are an atheist or even agnostic. Why is there so much pushback on this issue? Do folks that beleive in ID think the earth is only 10,000 years old too? If so, I guess us burning coal is imaginary.
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Re: Science, Creationism and Intelligent Design

PostBy: beemerboy On: Mon Oct 27, 2008 11:31 am

My main problem with Creationism and Intelligent Design is the people that want to teach it tend to make it the be-all and end-all. You know, like, God made everything so there is no need to study it. Water flows down hill because god made it that way. Leaves on the trees change color because God made it that way so we have no reason to learn about it.

I realize those are exaggerations, but for any science subject supplanted by “god made it so” is a step backwards in the age old quest for knowledge.

When we look at the Moslem schools they teach the boys to read only so that they can read the Koran. The only books they are allowed to read is the Koran and books about the Koran. Look at the living conditions they have because the thirst for knowledge is stomped on by “Allah made it and that is all you need to know.”

Religion has it’s value in society, of that I have no question. I do go to church services occasionally. But, I strongly believe that if you want your child to learn about God, Creationism and Intelligent Design take them to Church and Sunday School and leave the public schools to teach science and critical thinking and not “God made it, so you don’t need to know about it”.
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Re: Science, Creationism and Intelligent Design

PostBy: av8r On: Mon Oct 27, 2008 11:41 am

Beemer:

Your perspective, to me, sounds like one born of a catholic background. I don't know any like minded folks that expect you to check your God given ability to reason for yourself at the door when considering ID. Questioning the way things are is healthy and often leads to a better understanding of the thing you're considering.
Last edited by av8r on Mon Oct 27, 2008 2:36 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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Re: Science, Creationism and Intelligent Design

PostBy: kootch88 On: Mon Oct 27, 2008 11:46 am

My main problem with Creationism and Intelligent Design is the people that want to teach it tend to make it the be-all and end-all. You know, like, God made everything so there is no need to study it. Water flows down hill because god made it that way. Leaves on the trees change color because God made it that way so we have no reason to learn about it.


Exactly my problem with ID as well. At least with science, there is no shame in admitting your theory was wrong or needs tweaking due to increased knowledge and you build from there. With ID, which is Christian based, there is no building of knowledge. You study, it is as stated and that is it. My other problem with ID is that it is Christian based to begin with. What proof is there that this version of creation is any more valid than American Indian's version of creation, or of ancient Greek's version? Theirs is faith based as well. There are more Buddhists in the world than any other faith, why isn't the Budhist version of creation the correct one?

Because there is no scientific validity to any of the religious based creation stories. That doesn't mean there is no God.
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