The care and feeding of a Warm Morning stove

Re: The care and feeding of a Warm Morning stove

PostBy: envisage On: Mon Nov 24, 2008 1:59 am

I see I am not the only one up this late! :o I am not sure what this particular model looks like, but coal needs to burn from the bottom up. Wood can burn from either direction. My top feeder door is kept closed at all times unless I am loading coal. Generally speaking any coal stove will burn wood, but the reverse is usually not true. I had both top and bottom open to get the base coals of wood going. Since you are burning wood, I suspect that the ashes will eventually clog the air coming up from the bottom, so keep your bottom draft closed and see if keeping the top open works. The only thing I would be concerned about is smoke spilling into the house. Hope that helps! :-)
envisage
 
Hand Fed Coal Boiler: Werner Foundry 350a
Hand Fed Coal Stove: Warm Morning 400, Fire Boss Wood/Coal Hyrbrid
Coal Size/Type: Buckwheat, Pea, Chestnut and Stove

Re: The care and feeding of a Warm Morning stove

PostBy: Bones On: Mon Nov 24, 2008 10:51 pm

Envisage,
Thanks for the info on burning wood in a coal heater-closing the bottom draft vent and opening the top loading doorvent works great with wood. I have been tring this for two days now and it has cut my wood cunsumption in half.
Also you said you didn't know anything about a Model 414-Well it's tiny, only around 3 1/2 feet tall or so-and about a foot and 1/2 square. It holds very little wood and I have to cut small chunks. Also, burning wood in this small heater is a pain. You have to load every hour or so-so it's hard to keep up with, but the payoff is good. I live on 16 acres of woods so heat is free.....as long as I'm loading the little thing. I would hate to see how hot it could get burning coal because, with wood, my house is 85 degrees plus, when it's only in the 20's and teen's outside, and I can have the living room windows open and the ceiling fan on. This thing will run you out of your house-oh, yeah, it's a 1949 model 414 or older, that's all I know.
I also have one more question- my mother heats with an old King-O-Heat. It's two times the size of mine and she burns wood also. Anyone ever heard of a King-O-Heat?
I can't find any info on this heater. I think it's also designed for coal.
Bones
 
Stove/Furnace Make: Warm Morning
Stove/Furnace Model: Model 414

Re: The care and feeding of a Warm Morning stove

PostBy: envisage On: Tue Nov 25, 2008 3:37 am

Hey Bones, I am glad that the advice helped. This may get me kicked off this forum, but I am a wood burner too! I have 17.5 cords of firewood here that I burn in two other stoves. One a wood/coal hybrid (Fire Boss), and the other a straight wood stove (Fischer). I am glad that the wood is burning so well for you in your model Warm Morning. If you have any access to coal, get some and try it. It is the exact opposite of burning wood, but it requires very little tending. Like you have probably read elsewhere, I shake down once or twice a day, fill it up to the firebrick, and walk away. It is so cool, or should I say so hot! It is also a little frustrating because I am used to (like to) play with my wood fire. Nevertheless, to have constant and fairly regular heat all day long is amazing! When I can no longer gather, split and stack firewood, this will be what I finally turn to. For now, it is nice to have both. Sorry to ramble on, but I have never heard of the King-O-Heat. Be patient however, there is so much knowledge in this forum, you will get a response eventually. Happy burning! :-)
envisage
 
Hand Fed Coal Boiler: Werner Foundry 350a
Hand Fed Coal Stove: Warm Morning 400, Fire Boss Wood/Coal Hyrbrid
Coal Size/Type: Buckwheat, Pea, Chestnut and Stove


Re: The care and feeding of a Warm Morning stove

PostBy: envisage On: Thu Nov 27, 2008 11:28 am

Mound City wrote:It's been so long since I've seen a Warm Morning -- When you open the top door to load new coal to an existing burn, does a lot of smoke/soot leak into the room? I would love to have one of these stoves for my den, but I'm afraid I might have to was the walls on a daily basis.


Once the stove and chimney are up to a good drafting temp, there is so much draw that no smoke at all comes into the room. I would imagine there could be some smoke/soot from burning wood, but there should be no chance of any with coal.
envisage
 
Hand Fed Coal Boiler: Werner Foundry 350a
Hand Fed Coal Stove: Warm Morning 400, Fire Boss Wood/Coal Hyrbrid
Coal Size/Type: Buckwheat, Pea, Chestnut and Stove

Re: The care and feeding of a Warm Morning stove

PostBy: dangit On: Thu Nov 27, 2008 11:56 pm

envisage wrote, Hey Dangit, how do you know that you are getting soot? Can you see it building up inside the burn chamber, or are you checking the stovepipe?

Thanks for the reply and sorry for the delay in getting back to the forum. I do get a little soot around the inner edges of the loading door and lots at the boot area. When I took the pipes apart on the 22nd in order to install the Magic Heat heat reclaimer there was more soot buildup in the pipes than I thought should be normal for just a few weeks of burn time. I loaded with small lumps at first and a 1/2 load mostly to see how the stove would react and that everything was going to be safe. Then switched to larger lumps some about the size of footballs and filled it to the top of the firebricks with no difference in the way the coal burns. First the volatiles burn off with roaring yellow flames and thick black sooty smoke. Then the flames begin to settle down after 30 or 40 minutes and then progressively thinner looking gray smoke for 2 hours. Then it burns with small blue flames for a little while with no visable smoke and finally the coal burns cherry red with no flames and no visible smoke. So, it burns a long time with no visible smoke coming from the chimney and you would not even suspect I had a fire burning.

When I fill it up to the top of the firebricks I get a good 10 hours or more burn time and the fire has always been hot enough to easily get the next load burning good again. I keep the bottom draft almost closed and never open the top draft (but air easily comes in around the loading door since there is no stove gasket.) A few times I have tossed in a little bit of carboard and opened the draft all the way to get a quick flameup for about 30 seconds. That sends soot particles flying out the chimney. Then I close the draft and load the stove. A couple of days ago I did allow the bottom draft to remain open for about 5 or 10 minutes after loading up and watched as the smoke really poured out the chimney. When I went back to check the flue temp the needle was pegged. A little scary!!!

I measure the flue temp about 6" from the cast iron boot. From the beginning of the load the temp gradually rises from 200 to 250 - 300 - 350 - 400 and then gradually back to 250 after the flames have died down. The coal burns to a fine ash and I empty the pan 1st thing every morning before the 1st loading.
dangit
 
Hand Fed Coal Stove: Warm Morning 523

Re: The care and feeding of a Warm Morning stove

PostBy: envisage On: Fri Nov 28, 2008 8:41 am

Hey Dangit, sounds like your Warm Morning is burning really well. I think you are getting some soot because you are burning Bituminous. From what I understand "Bit" is somewhat dirtier than anthracite, but once the volatiles burn off everything is fine. I believe the Warm Morning was optimized to burn bit, especially because of the internal 4 flue design. I was able to get a bucket of bit a few months ago before I had my Warm Morning installed. I burned it in my Fire Boss Wood/Coal hybrid. I was amazed at how easily it burned, almost like wood, but I did notice soot and the distinctive smell of sulfur, neither of which I get from the anthracite. A few questions for you if you don't mind. I am able to get about 2-1/2 5 gallon buckets of coal (about 100 pounds I think) loaded in mine up to the firebrick. How much can you get in yours? I am able to control the air coming into mine by using a small rectangular door at the bottom (where you access the shaker handle), and a lever thingee on the side of the unit with about 6 settings. How does yours control air intake? I also have a small slider thingee on the loading door that seems to control air over the top of the coal, which I usually keep closed. Does your unit have that? Sorry to hit you with so many questions. I wish I could find a manual for this beastie. It is burning very well, but I sense there are subtle details about its operation that I am missing. Hope you and yours had a great Thanksgiving yesterday! :-)
envisage
 
Hand Fed Coal Boiler: Werner Foundry 350a
Hand Fed Coal Stove: Warm Morning 400, Fire Boss Wood/Coal Hyrbrid
Coal Size/Type: Buckwheat, Pea, Chestnut and Stove

Re: The care and feeding of a Warm Morning stove

PostBy: dangit On: Sat Nov 29, 2008 5:31 pm

I agree the soot buildup is due to burning bit coal but the Warm Morning design is optimized to burn it. I hoped that someone had figured out how to reduce it in these Warm Morning stoves. We both have the same sense that there are subtle details of these stoves that will allow us to operate them better once we know how.

Thanks for sharing your experience burning the bit you had access to. With regard to the bit coal I burn, I like the fact it has no sulphur smell and that it produces a little bit of small blue flames after the volatiles and yellow flames burn off and regard them as an indication the coal I have available is pretty decent quality. The 523 model holds 1.75 cubic feet of coal. Not sure how much that weighs but I'll figure it out next week and re-post.

It appears our stove designs are very similar. The model 523 has the rectangular draft door on the bottom door and access to the shaker handle when the bottom ash door is open but no lever to control the draft. This stove's design has a compression spring that provides tension against the draft contol plate to allow the draft to be fine tuned. The top loading door does have a sliding 'top draft' control to supply air at the top when burning a wood fire and I also keep it closed when burning coal.

Are your firebricks in good shape? Two of mine are cracked and need touched up with mortar. Are you keeping tabs on your flue temperatures? I have paid more attention to my thermometer and is seems to be burning between 200 and 270 most of the time.

We had a great Thanksgiving holiday, thank you. Almost everyone headed back home this afternoon. My oldest son is staying through next Thursday and we are trying to extend our holiday vacation a bit longer with him, except he is going to help me load up the truck with another ton of coal on Monday. Hope your family had a good holiday together too! :)
dangit
 
Hand Fed Coal Stove: Warm Morning 523

Re: The care and feeding of a Warm Morning stove

PostBy: envisage On: Sun Nov 30, 2008 2:59 am

Thanks for the wonderful feedback Dangit! I believe my firebrick is a pretty good shape. Warm Morning firebrick is very expensive to replace. There appears to be a crack on one in the top center back, but it is not serious. I hope you are able to touch yours up with mortar. My flue temp seems to generally be between 300 and 350. I know that is a bit on the hot side, but I do not have a manual or barometric damper installed yet, but should by next week. Do you? I am burning thru about 14 5 gallon buckets of coal a week, which is what I expected to, but it seems high nonetheless. What do you think? A cubic foot of coal weighs roughly 40 pounds, so if your model 523 holds 1.75, then you are able to fill yours with approximately 70 pounds of coal. Very impressive. Do you find your soot buildup to be a real problem? I hope to get my hands on more "bit" coal soon, but maybe I should not be so anxious to burn it? I am glad you and your family had a great Thanksgiving together. I did as well, plus Friday was my birthday, so the last few days have been a real blessing. C-ya buddy! :-)
envisage
 
Hand Fed Coal Boiler: Werner Foundry 350a
Hand Fed Coal Stove: Warm Morning 400, Fire Boss Wood/Coal Hyrbrid
Coal Size/Type: Buckwheat, Pea, Chestnut and Stove

Re: The care and feeding of a Warm Morning stove

PostBy: dangit On: Mon Dec 01, 2008 3:41 am

Good info on your operation envisage. I do not think you are burning too hot. I still have not weighed the actual load fed into my stove but calculating from the weight of my 1st truck load and estimating what is left in the pile I am burning 2 loads or about 80 pounds a day. I am not filling it solid full to the top of the firebrick since the large chunks do leave some gaps in the load. Calculating the wife's truck bed holds 48 cubic feet of coal that weighed 2,200 pounds would equal 45.8 pounds per cubic foot. So, your number (40 lbs per cubic foot) roughly supports my estimate. My flue temps are lower than yours but I also keep my draft closed to a minimum.

I still have no barometric damper either. Soot buildup is not a big problem except little soot balls collect on the kitchen porch when the wind sifts and comes from the 'wrong' direction. That is the main reason I want to cut the soot problem to a minimum. I have a cracked brick, center back bottom that appears minor. Should be able to touch it up OK.

I need to heat a large 120 year old, drafty house with 10.5 ceilings but as the cost of LP gas rose well over $2.50 a gallon and my appraisal work has slowed I had no choice other than to switch over to coal. The wife was very skeptical at 1st when I setup the stove is in the basement. Temps in the basement hover around 85. I rigged a plenum to feed hot air into my existing ductwork and have kept the main level about 70. The floors are warm and there are no cold drafts. We use an air source heat pump for the 2nd level and it only runs 1/2 as much as usual. Our holiday company was toasty warm during their stay and the wife is very pleased!!! That might change once our air temps begin to drop a bit more.

Good to hear you have been blessed so well, as have we. Let me know if you get some more bit to burn. Stay safe.
dangit
 
Hand Fed Coal Stove: Warm Morning 523

Re: The care and feeding of a Warm Morning stove

PostBy: envisage On: Mon Dec 01, 2008 9:02 am

Gee Dangit, apparently neither one of us sleep early in the morning! But that is sometimes the best time for me to "play" with my Warm Morning. Sounds like our stoves are burning similar amounts of coal. Our homes sound similar as well, in terms of their insulation values anyway. It has been in the mid 20's to the mid 30's around here, and inside it is around 65 to 68! I am very pleased, although I am also burning a wood stove in my living room which helps to heat the 2nd and 3rd floors. However, I now find that I can let it go out and the heat from the Warm Morning in the basement still carries through until I feel like starting the wood stove up again. It is so amazing to have regular, consistent heat that I do not really need to tend to! Are these soot balls that you talk about actually solid things!?! They sound interesting none the less. My heat is hot water radiators fed from a oil fired furnace, so I do not have air ducts to feed as you do. I am jealous, although I am working to convert my oil furnace to burn waste veggie oil from restaurants. In any case I only use it to heat hot water for cooking and washing. Up until now my wood stoves have provided the heat for house, but now the Warm Morning is here. Praise God! :-)
envisage
 
Hand Fed Coal Boiler: Werner Foundry 350a
Hand Fed Coal Stove: Warm Morning 400, Fire Boss Wood/Coal Hyrbrid
Coal Size/Type: Buckwheat, Pea, Chestnut and Stove

Re: The care and feeding of a Warm Morning stove

PostBy: dangit On: Mon Dec 01, 2008 10:15 pm

Our temps dropped a bit today as the wind picked up to 20 mph and a few snow showers moved through the area. I opened the draft a little more and am burning at 350 now. Will burn an extra 10 to 20 lbs today and tonight. Temp is 69 in the 2nd warmest room tonight but the wind is robbing some heat and it feels cooler inside than yesterday at 70 or 71. My coal pile is dwindling and I would have made my run today to pick up a load of coal except the mountain pass is iced over.

Soot balls are light and fluffy so they float around and gradually sink to the ground or get caught by the gutters. Some blow around on the walks. Even a slight breeze causes them to collect in areas sort of like dry snow drifting around but no large amounts of soot. Once crushed they leave a gray streak and soil the soles of shoes. I have one pair to wear outside and another for inside. Bit of a bother though.

You have an interesting heat system and like you the Warm Morning is making it lots more comfortable. Yes, we are blessed!
dangit
 
Hand Fed Coal Stove: Warm Morning 523

Re: The care and feeding of a Warm Morning stove

PostBy: envisage On: Wed Dec 03, 2008 7:25 pm

We have not had much snow here in PA, but at night the temps are in the mid 20's. Thank God my Warm morning is working so well. Even my second and third floors are relatively comfortable. I have about 12 tons of coal here so I should be OK for a few years. I hope you are able to get more bit once the icy roads have thawed out. Those soot balls sound interesting and a royal pain in the butt. Are you having any trouble keeping your stove going continuously? I only had to start up again once since I started burning about 2 weeks ago. That is because I was silly enough to try and burn a bucket of coal fines! It eventually choked the air feed from the bottom.
envisage
 
Hand Fed Coal Boiler: Werner Foundry 350a
Hand Fed Coal Stove: Warm Morning 400, Fire Boss Wood/Coal Hyrbrid
Coal Size/Type: Buckwheat, Pea, Chestnut and Stove

Re: The care and feeding of a Warm Morning stove

PostBy: dangit On: Thu Dec 04, 2008 2:13 am

The snow melted off the pass (only place it accumulated) and was able to get a load yesterday. As I was handloading the truck my dealer came over and showed me where to pick to get the best coal. He said he was having problems getting all the coal he needed as he has lots of new customers switching from NG or LP gas back to coal. Gald to hear you are set for a few years on your supply but it might be a good idea to replenish your stockpile during the off season.

Have done a little experimenting regarding the soot production. Tonight I opened the top draft after loading the stove with a small 7 # lump, flue temp above the heat reclaimer was at 350 and bottom draft slightly open. Had a nice hot fire with little flame and no smoke. After 15 minutes all the vols had mostly burned off and had some blue flames licking up through the hollow firebrick. Whenever I closed the top draft door the blue flames disappeared so I kept it open. Flue temp rose to 450. Within 30 to 45 minutes all the soot on and around the exhaust pipe had disappeared and the chimney was only producing the slightest bit of thin gray smoke. Then I loaded about 20 # of coal in three big lumps and the stove really took off. Temps jumped to 550 within 2 or 3 minutes so I closed down the air drafts and got it back to 450 in short order. Of course with all this experimenting the air temp in the house began to rise and the 2nd level heat pump was not coming on any longer. But, the lesson was reinforced, stay alert and stay with the stove if changes are made to the regular routine. I will report on any reduction in the soot levels after a little more experimenting.

To answer the question about keeping the stove fired, that has not been a problem. Have always had a hot bed of coals to get fired up again. I did shut it down in order to install the heat reclaimer and set up the plenum to catch and send hot air into the air ducts. That was a huge improvement in keeping temps up on the main level. I am sold on the heat reclaimer as a great addition to the system.

Let me suggest a solution on burning fines without smothering an otherwise hot fire. Mix your fines along with a few bits and pieces of coal in a brown paper bag (newspaper should work just as well if you are carefull to tuck the ends), not too much coal maybe two, three or four pounds or so. Roll it up tightly from the bottom into a log, (try not to choke yourself on coal dust in the process) then place the beautiful 'log' into the center of a hot fire. As the coal heats up and sticks together it should burn OK. Make up several 'logs' like that and add more as the others began to burn well, about every 30 minutes or so. I did this a few days ago with several 'logs' and it worked OK. If you try this method let me know how it worked out for you.

Hey, almost forgot to say I've ordered a new piece to craft into an oval boot. Will let you know how that works out.
dangit
 
Hand Fed Coal Stove: Warm Morning 523

Re: The care and feeding of a Warm Morning stove

PostBy: envisage On: Thu Dec 04, 2008 7:40 am

Hey Dangit, I am glad to hear that you got more coal safely. It sounds like you have a great relationship with your local coal dealer. That is a real blessing. I am planning to pick up another 1/2 ton or so of coal this morning to top off one of my outside bins, and I might go back tomorrow to pick up more to replace what I have burned so far downstairs. I am sure there are many people switching from gas to coal. Many of my neighbors would love to try burning wood and/or coal, but they do not have chimneys.

I would love to hear more about your heat reclaimer. I know they have been covered here on the forum in other threads, but you have pretty much the same stove as I do, and that makes a difference. I have been considering one for my Warm Morning, and my other 2 wood stoves. Exactly what manufacturer and model do you have? How far do you have yours from the stove? Do you need to clean it out often? Sounds like it is not adversely effecting your drafting. Like you I been "playing" around with the feeding process of my stove. Generally I empty the ash pan first, shake down, then usually poke down through the top to break up any air pockets, then shake down again until I see some juicy hot embers falling through. Then I empty the ash pan, and fill half of the firebox up, usually hearing a good amount of crackling, followed by the blue and orange ladies.

I leave the ash door cracked open for about 5 minutes or so to give the top layer a chance to ignite, then I fill up to the top. I wait until I see some blue ladies dancing on the top and through some of the internal flues, then I close the ash door and I am done. Sometimes the stack temp will shoot up close to 500 degrees while I am doing this, but closing the ash door brings everything under control. Usually takes about 10 minutes each morning and at night. Small price to pay for constant, consistent heat!

I think you have a good idea on burning up those fines. All the ones I had are gone, but once I get down to the bottom of some of my bins, I will have more. I just can not bring myself to throw coal away before it is burned, even if it is dust. Speaking of throwing coal away, what do you do with your ash? I have been keeping all of mine in empty 5 gallon buckets, thinking I can use it on the sidewalks and steps for traction when the snow falls. Maybe it might even help to melt it? Keep me posted on your new oval boot project. I really want to get a manual damper installed as soon as possible, and perhaps a barometric one at the same time.
envisage
 
Hand Fed Coal Boiler: Werner Foundry 350a
Hand Fed Coal Stove: Warm Morning 400, Fire Boss Wood/Coal Hyrbrid
Coal Size/Type: Buckwheat, Pea, Chestnut and Stove

Re: The care and feeding of a Warm Morning stove

PostBy: dangit On: Sat Dec 06, 2008 12:25 am

Sure, it's the Magic Heat brand and only one model is made. Well that's not true, the units are the same but one has the crimp on the top pipe, the other on the bottom pipe (that was the one I bought for $140 at Northern Tool.) It was fairly straightforward to install. Put it about 18" from the stove's exhaust flue and it's easy to operate, just plug it in. I hope it is somewhat clean inside the unit but it has not adversely affected the draft. I have about 24' of masonry chimney lined with terra cotta and there is a pretty decent draft. The heat reclaimer's output is good and the flue temps don't fall very much. Running a flue temp of 350 above it and almost the same below it. Measuring the forced air temp coming from the tubes is around 150 about 2 feet away when flue temp is at 350. I tried the gauge closer to the reclaimer but the radiant heat from the stove is too powerful to get a true reading from the reclaimer. Nonetheless it is very hot. I will play around with it some more. Another interesting fact is that before installation the rear of the basement stayed much cooler, about 60. The stove is at the entry and the rear is about 40 to 50 feet from the stove. After installing the Magic Heat the temps are much better back there, 70-75.

Our stove care and feeding routines are very similar. I put a freash load of bit on top of cherry red coals then stand back and listen to the coal crack and the roar of flames!!! Ashes? I have an area on my property to store ash through the winter or permanently if needed. Not sure were else to haul them anyway. I thought about the gravel parking area of the driveway but probably will not do that since the ash will eventually make it onto the sidewalks and into house during wet weather.

Talking to my dealer, he says this bit coal came from one of the surface mines in Harlan, KY. Although the only deep mine operating there produces the best burning coal, there are lots and lots of fines in it due to the auger method used to dig the coal from the seam. That must be much harder coal and should burn real good. Would love to have nut size to burn after it was screened, washed and bagged. The mine could always sell the fines to a power plant since they just grind their coal to powder anyway.

Should have the new boot delivered on Monday but will wait for the weather to moderate before letting the fire die out. Gotta stay warm, you know.
dangit
 
Hand Fed Coal Stove: Warm Morning 523