What Kind Of State Secrets Does A President Know?

Re: What Kind Of State Secrets Does A President Know?

PostBy: gaw On: Thu Nov 13, 2008 1:04 pm

Devil505 wrote:While I'm far from a firearms expert, (Dr. Atwater from "Tales Of The Gun" is! :lol: ) but not all bolt actions are the same. Some are easier to operate & thus faster than others. (I think the Lee Enfield rifle was known for a nice bolt action, but I may be mistaken)


Most if not all of the old military bolts cocked on closing. Modern sporting bolts cock on opening. You will know and "feel" the diference if you opperate one of each. I will not go into a detailed explanation here. This is not a "state secret" :lol:
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Re: What Kind Of State Secrets Does A President Know?

PostBy: BugsyR On: Thu Nov 13, 2008 1:32 pm

What kind or how many do they know?

Personally I think past Presidents have forgotten more than they still know.

I also personally believe that President Elect Obama has already been briefed on some that I doubt my great great grandchildren will ever hear about...in other words...they'll never be declassified.
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Re: What Kind Of State Secrets Does A President Know?

PostBy: Devil505 On: Thu Nov 13, 2008 3:24 pm

BugsyR wrote:I also personally believe that President Elect Obama has already been briefed on some that I doubt my great great grandchildren will ever hear about...in other words...they'll never be declassified.


Personally, I think you guys have far to much faith in the ability of the CIA to gather information. We are the world's best at technological intelligence gathering ( Overhead Photography from space, Signals Intelligence, & other type of Electronics Intell) Mainly the bailiwick of NSA, not CIA. We fall way behind other countrys, however when it come to Human Intelligence. (England, Israel, Germany, the old Warsaw Pact countyrs, etc.......Hell....We can't even speak the language of many of our enemies!! :lol: )
Unfortunately, our enemy now is a very backward/Low Tech/primitive group of terrorists against whom our technological Intell. advantage has little effect. We spent 50 years developing a great spy system to counter The Soviet Union....They are long gone!
Last edited by Devil505 on Thu Nov 13, 2008 3:56 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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Re: What Kind Of State Secrets Does A President Know?

PostBy: BugsyR On: Thu Nov 13, 2008 3:32 pm

Devil505 wrote: Personally, I think you guys have far to much faith in the ability of the CIA to gather information. We are the world's best at technological intelligence gathering ( Overhead Photography from space, Signals Intelligence, & other type of Electronics Intell)but we fall way behind other countrys when it come to Human Intelligence. (England, Germany, the old Warsaw Pact countyrs, etc.......Hell....We can't even speak the language of many of our enemies!! :lol: )
Unfortunately, our enemy now is a very backward/Low Tech/primitive group of terrorists against whom our technological Intell. advantage has little effect. We spent 50 years developing a great spy system to counter The Soviet Union....They are long gone!


I think you give us too much credit for technology and not enough credit for HUMINT. Where I think the USA hurts the most is in motivation. I believe our people are generally .... lazy.


edit...kind of harsh so I decided to edit....lazy being that I believe we as an American people are drawn and motivated by the American Dollar.....and our technology. Basically what ever makes it easier for ourselves and only ourselves.
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Re: What Kind Of State Secrets Does A President Know?

PostBy: Devil505 On: Thu Nov 13, 2008 3:55 pm

BugsyR wrote:I think you give us too much credit for technology and not enough credit for HUMINT.



I don't think there's another country on Earth that even comes close to our technological intelligence gathering capabilities. Personally, considering where our worst threats come from nowadays, If I was President I would want a daily briefing from Israel's Mossad! (I have worked with these guys Mike, & from what I've seen...They are the smartest & toughest spies in the world...Hands down!)

(Just what they go through in training makes our training look like nursery school stuff! :lol:
If you're ever taken hostage by terrorists...Pray the Mossad will be the ones coming to save you! :rambo2: )
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Re: What Kind Of State Secrets Does A President Know?

PostBy: av8r On: Thu Nov 13, 2008 5:52 pm

We can't go back to the moon. The aliens living on the dark side told us to stay away...everyone knows that.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=635ma8SSDHg
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Re: What Kind Of State Secrets Does A President Know?

PostBy: BugsyR On: Thu Nov 13, 2008 10:16 pm

Devil505 wrote: I don't think there's another country on Earth that even comes close to our technological intelligence gathering capabilities. Personally, considering where our worst threats come from nowadays, If I was President I would want a daily briefing from Israel's Mossad! (I have worked with these guys Mike, & from what I've seen...They are the smartest & toughest spies in the world...Hands down!)

(Just what they go through in training makes our training look like nursery school stuff! :lol:
If you're ever taken hostage by terrorists...Pray the Mossad will be the ones coming to save you! :rambo2: )


I believe I am correct when I say you at least once in your life and career you have signed your life away...I think you understand what I am saying. I don't doubt our technological intelligence collecting capabilities but I do firmly believe you give technology too much credit. I don't doubt our humint as much as you do but I do agree that others are more than likely better and we as a free country make their collection rather easy...imo. Not to mention in our country when a leak (whether accidently or purposely) to the press happens they tend to get the scoop and let out secrets....major ones...to the entire world. Also, we collect on other countries just like they collect on us. It's mutual and understood.

As for State secrets...when you sign your small life away just like the President more than like signs his huge life away, I firmly believe they (the Presidents) know a whole lot more than we...our children...our grandchildren...our great great grandchildren will ever know. I said it before and I will continue to say it...there are things the American people just don't need to know.
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Re: What Kind Of State Secrets Does A President Know?

PostBy: BugsyR On: Thu Nov 13, 2008 10:20 pm

One last thing...my heart is with the Navy and instead of Mossad...I'll pray the SEALS come instead.
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Re: What Kind Of State Secrets Does A President Know?

PostBy: Devil505 On: Thu Nov 13, 2008 10:41 pm

BugsyR wrote:I believe I am correct when I say you at least once in your life and career you have signed your life away...I think you understand what I am saying.


I'm honestly not sure what you mean here Mike.


BugsyR wrote:I don't doubt our humint as much as you do


I'm not divulging anything that isn't public information here when I say I have seen PBS (public) documentaries where CIA Agents lament that they were not even able to communicate with local tribes people in Afghanistan (or elsewhere in the middle east) because they didn't have enough interpreters...They couldn't ask for a drink of water, let alone ask where Osama Bin Ladin was!! :shock: (what we do very well is pay allot of money for information, but that info is often told to us just to make the money & is therefore more often than not, un-reliable)

BugsyR wrote:I firmly believe they (the Presidents) know a whole lot more than we...our children...our grandchildren...our great great grandchildren will ever know. I said it before and I will continue to say it...there are things the American people just don't need to know.


I agree when it come to current or recent secrets Mike, but when enough time has passed ALL secrets end up being revealed. Either through authors trying to sell books, government employees getting older & wanting to have their stories told or family members trying to clear the name of a relative.( Look at "Deep Throat" (Mark Felt) of "All The President's Men" fame, who's identity was finally disclosed when he & his family decided enough time had passed.)
As far as current state secrets, you are right ....... everything is on a need to know basis, so lowly peons like us lowly field agents know very little. ( especially when compared to a President & his/her Nat'l Security staff)
That being said, it's surprising to many people that DEA, probably more than most agencies besides CIA, often is privy to more information than most other U.S. gencies,......including CIA! (Terrorists, the middle east & drugs are all woven together in an inseparable "Tapestry" that is a wealth of HUMINT for our government, but still has great limitations.)

Getting back to Presidential secrets though, History shows us that all these secrets will eventually be told....ALL OF THEM.
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Re: What Kind Of State Secrets Does A President Know?

PostBy: SAU On: Fri Nov 14, 2008 12:09 am

If Kennedy was assassinated via conspiracy The following is the reason why.

From The Final Call, Vol. 15, No.6, On January 17, 1996

On June 4, 1963, a little known attempt was made to strip the Federal Reserve Bank of its power to loan money to the government at interest. On that day President John F. Kennedy signed Executive Order No. 11110 that returned to the U.S. government the power to issue currency, without going through the Federal Reserve. Mr. Kennedy's order gave the Treasury the power "to issue silver certificates against any silver bullion, silver, or standard silver dollars in the Treasury." This meant that for every ounce of silver in the U.S. Treasury's vault, the government could introduce new money into circulation. In all, Kennedy brought nearly $4.3 billion in U.S. notes into circulation. The ramifications of this bill are enormous.

http://www.john-f-kennedy.net/executiveorder11110.htm

The word "conspiracy" has been tainted by the term "conspiracy theory" so let's look at the definition of conspiracy.

5 dictionary results for: conspiracy
Dictionary.com Unabridged (v 1.1) - Cite This Source - Share This
con⋅spir⋅a⋅cy
   /kənˈspɪrəsi/ Show Spelled Pronunciation [kuhn-spir-uh-see] Show IPA Pronunciation
–noun, plural -cies.
1. the act of conspiring.
2. an evil, unlawful, treacherous, or surreptitious plan formulated in secret by two or more persons; plot.
3. a combination of persons for a secret, unlawful, or evil purpose: He joined the conspiracy to overthrow the government.
4. Law. an agreement by two or more persons to commit a crime, fraud, or other wrongful act.
5. any concurrence in action; combination in bringing about a given result.

It is the mark of an educated mind to be able to entertain a thought without accepting it.

Aristotle

The only true wisdom is in knowing you know nothing.

Socrates
SAU
 
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Re: What Kind Of State Secrets Does A President Know?

PostBy: Devil505 On: Fri Nov 14, 2008 7:47 am

SAU wrote:The word "conspiracy" has been tainted by the term "conspiracy theory" so let's look at the definition of conspiracy.


SAU wrote:1. the act of conspiring.
2. an evil, unlawful, treacherous, or surreptitious plan formulated in secret by two or more persons; plot.
3. a combination of persons for a secret, unlawful, or evil purpose: He joined the conspiracy to overthrow the government.
4. Law. an agreement by two or more persons to commit a crime, fraud, or other wrongful act.
5. any concurrence in action; combination in bringing about a given result.



I'll just throw in the federal legal concept of "Overt Act" that one must perform in order to be convicted of "Conspiracy" in federal court.

...."In criminal law, an Overt act (from French ouvert,open,adj.), an open act, one that can be clearly proved by evidence, and from which criminal intent can be inferred, as opposed to a mere intention in the mind to commit a crime. Therefore, it is an act that, while innocent per se, can potentially be used as evidence against someone during a trial to show his/her participation in a crime. For instance, a rental of a van and a purchase of a gun are overt acts as part of an assassination. The term is more particularly employed in cases of treason, which must be demonstrated by some overt or open act.

In criminal conspiracy cases, an overt act must frequently be proven in order to convict the defendants of the crime
."...

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Overt_act

In other words, to be convicted of Conspiracy in federal court, 2 (or more) people must agree to violate the law & then at least one of them must be proven to have committed at least one Overt Act in furtherance of the conspiracy. (This overt act can be as simple as driving by a bank (to observe its security) that you are conspiring to rob)....... but merely talking to someone else about committing a crime is not a crime, the Overt Act must be proven as well.
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Re: What Kind Of State Secrets Does A President Know?

PostBy: Devil505 On: Fri Nov 14, 2008 8:04 am

BugsyR wrote:One last thing...my heart is with the Navy and instead of Mossad...I'll pray the SEALS come instead.



Our SEALS are very good Mike but personally, if I'm going to be saved from terrorists, the folks I would want to come & rescue me would be:

1. Mossad
2. British SAS (Special Air Service)

Then you can send in the SEALS or DELTA Force! :rambo:
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Re: What Kind Of State Secrets Does A President Know?

PostBy: av8r On: Fri Nov 14, 2008 11:01 am

If the SEALS are between 35 and 45 I'd take them. The new crop, not so much.
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Re: What Kind Of State Secrets Does A President Know?

PostBy: BugsyR On: Fri Nov 14, 2008 5:15 pm

Devil505 wrote:
BugsyR wrote:I believe I am correct when I say you at least once in your life and career you have signed your life away...I think you understand what I am saying.


I'm honestly not sure what you mean here Mike.


When you lose your "need to know"...transfer...new job...etc... there is paper work to be filled out, we called it "being read out". Depending on level of info determines longevity of basically...keeping your mouth shut about that info...therefore, sometimes you basically sign your life away. If us peons "sign our lives away" on things that happened...say, 17 years ago...and those things cannot be found anywhere...news...magazines...internet...PBS, yet basically don't mean much today in national security...I firmly believe that ...

..., History shows us that all these secrets will eventually be told....ALL OF THEM.


...your quoted opinion has some flaws.

There are just too many State Secrets that there is no way that "ALL OF THEM" will eventually be told. I firmly believe that classified military missions, which are State Secrets, will never be made known to the public in their entirety. Same goes for any DEA, CIA, FBI,....etc.

Some info can be found in articles and such and if you look for Soviet Bombers in the Atlantic and Pacific during the Cold War you can read some interesting stuff. Questions arise though...in the 1980's how many, how many times (weekly, monthly, etc), and how close do/did they come to the main land? Were they armed? Were they info gatherers? etc. Hell...we all know that we had aircraft that flew OVER the Soviet Union...did they ever have anything that flew over us? If they did...why don't we (the public) know about it today? Hmmm...that could answer some of those UFO sightings...maybe :lol:

I just don't see "ALL" of those State Secrets being told....the American public just doesn't "need to know".
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Re: What Kind Of State Secrets Does A President Know?

PostBy: BugsyR On: Fri Nov 14, 2008 5:18 pm

Devil505 wrote: Our SEALS are very good Mike but personally, if I'm going to be saved from terrorists, the folks I would want to come & rescue me would be:

1. Mossad
2. British SAS (Special Air Service)

Then you can send in the SEALS or DELTA Force! :rambo:


you keep your Mossad...they are Isrealites...I believe that they would shoot through us to get to the terrorists and then claim that we were collateral damage.

I still rather have the SEALs

and Coffee flavored Ice Cream is still the best flavor out there... ;) :lol:
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