New Assault weapon Ban

Re: New Assault weapon Ban

PostBy: Poconoeagle On: Fri Nov 28, 2008 12:21 pm

Ya gotta love Wolf ammo. Good BANG for the buck! :roll:
Poconoeagle
 
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Re: New Assault weapon Ban

PostBy: SAU On: Fri Nov 28, 2008 1:13 pm

At least that is what this bill looks like to me, IE anything that will penetrate body armor.

Not just Armor Piercing ammo but anything that will pass through armor a average cop would wear.

And .223 and 7.62 x 51 and 7.62x39 and anything else that is FMJ would do this in my understanding.

Stock up people.



Ted Kennedy's 30-30 comments
AMENDMENT NO. 2619

Mr. KENNEDY. Mr. President, I understand we have a half an hour; is that correct?

The PRESIDING OFFICER. The Senator is correct.

Mr. KENNEDY. I yield myself 15 minutes.

The PRESIDING OFFICER. Does the Senator wish to send the amendment to the desk?

Mr. KENNEDY. I believe the amendment is at the desk.

The PRESIDING OFFICER. The clerk will report.

The assistant legislative clerk read as follows:


The Senator from Massachusetts [Mr. KENNEDY] proposes an amendment numbered 2619.


Mr. KENNEDY. Mr. President, I ask unanimous consent that reading of the amendment be dispensed with.

The PRESIDING OFFICER. Without objection, it is so ordered.

The amendment is as follows:

(Purpose: To expand the definition of armor piercing ammunition and to require the Attorney General to promulgate standards for the uniform testing of projectiles against body armor)
On page 11, after line 19, add the following:

SEC. 5. ARMOR PIERCING AMMUNITION.

(a) EXPANSION OF DEFINITION OF ARMOR PIERCING AMMUNITION.--Section 921(a)(17)(B) of title 18, United States Code, is amended--

(1) in clause (i), by striking ``or'' at the end;

(2) in clause (ii), by striking the period at the end and inserting a semicolon; and

(3) by adding at the end the following:

``(iii) a projectile that may be used in a handgun and that the Attorney General determines, pursuant to section 926(d), to be capable of penetrating body armor; or

``(iv) a projectile for a centerfire rifle, designed or marketed as having armor piercing capability, that the Attorney General determines, pursuant to section 926(d), to be more likely to penetrate body armor than standard ammunition of the same caliber.''.

(b) DETERMINATION OF THE CAPABILITY OF PROJECTILES TO PENETRATE BODY ARMOR.--Section 926 of title 18, United States Code, is amended by adding at the end the following:

``(d)(1) Not later than 1 year after the date of enactment of this subsection, the Attorney General shall promulgate standards for the uniform testing of projectiles against Body Armor Exemplar.

``(2) The standards promulgated pursuant to paragraph (1) shall take into account, among other factors, variations in performance that are related to the length of the barrel of the handgun or centerfire rifle from which the projectile is fired and the amount and kind of powder used to propel the projectile.

``(3) As used in paragraph (1), the term `Body Armor Exemplar' means body armor that the Attorney General determines meets minimum standards for the protection of law enforcement officers.''.


Mr. KENNEDY. Mr. President, I mentioned that there had been a homicide in Massachusetts recently, over 18 months. It was juvenile homicide. I ask that the Record be so corrected.

As we all know too well, the debate about gun violence has often been aggressive and polarizing with anti-gun violence advocates on one side of the debate, pro-gun advocates on the other. There are deep divisions in the country on the issue of gun safety, and the current debate on the gun immunity bill has thus far only served to highlight those divisions.

I believe, however, that there are still some principles on which we can all agree. One principle is that we should do everything we can to protect the lives and safety of police officers who are working to protect our streets, schools, and communities.

The amendment I am offering today is intended to close the existing loopholes in the Federal law that bans cop-killer bullets. Police officers depend on body armor for their lives. Body armor has saved thousands of police officers from death or serious injury by firearm assault. Most police officers who serve large jurisdictions wear armor at all times when on duty. Nevertheless, even with body armor, too many police officers remain vulnerable to gun violence.

According to the Federal Bureau of Investigation, every year between 50 and 80 police officers are feloniously killed in the line of duty. In 2002, firearms were used in 51 of the 56 murders of police officers. In those shootings, 34 of the officers were wearing body armor at the time of their deaths. From 1992 to 2002, at least 20 police officers were killed after bullets penetrated their armor vests and entered their upper torso.

Some gun organizations have argued that cop-killer bullets are a myth. The families of these slain police officers know better. In fact, we know that armor-piercing ammunition is not a myth because it is openly and notoriously marketed and sold by gun dealers.

Most high power rifles will fit neatly into the "cop killer" category.


I direct my colleagues' attention to the Web site of Hi-Vel, Incorporated, a self-described exotic products distributor and manufacturer in Delta, UT. You can access its online catalog on the Internet right now. Hi-Vel's catalog lists an entry for armor-piercing ammunition. On that page you will find a listing for armor-piercing bullets that can penetrate metal objects. The bullets are available in packages of 10 for $9.95 each. Hi-Vel carries armor-piercing bullets for both the .223 caliber rifles such as the Bushmaster sniper rifle used in the Washington area attacks in October 2002, and the 7.62 caliber assault weapons. Over the past 10 years, these two caliber weapons were responsible for the deaths of 14 of the 20 law enforcement officers killed by ammunition that penetrated body armor.

In a recent report, the ATF identified three, .223 and the 7.62 caliber rifles, as the ones most frequently encountered by police officers. These high-capacity rifles, the ATF wrote, pose an enhanced threat to law enforcement, in part because of their ability to expel particles at velocities that are capable of penetrating the type of soft body armor typically worn by law enforcement officers.

Another rifle caliber, the 30.30 caliber, was responsible for penetrating three officers' armor and killing them in 1993, 1996, and 2002. This ammunition is also capable of puncturing light-armored vehicles, ballistic or armored glass, armored limousines, even a 600-pound safe with 600 pounds of safe armor plating.

If the 30/30 is targeted they all are
MV (fps) V @ 200 yds ME (ft lb) E @ 200 yds
30 Carbine (110 RN) 1990 1236 967 373
.30-30 Win. (150 FP) 2390 1605 1902 858
.30-30 Win. (170 FP) 2200 1619 1827 989


It is outrageous and unconscionable that such ammunition continues to be sold in the United States of America. Armor-piercing ammunition for rifles and assault weapons is virtually unregulated in the United States. A Federal license is not required to sell such ammunition unless firearms are sold as well. Anyone over the age of 18 may purchase this ammunition without a background check. There is no Federal minimum age of possession. Purchases may be made over the counter, by mail order, by fax, by Internet, and there is

[Page: S1635] GPO's PDF
no Federal requirement that dealers retain sales records.
In 1999, investigators for the General Accounting Office went undercover to assess the availability of .50 caliber armor-piercing ammunition. Purchasing cop-killer bullets, it turned out, is only slightly more difficult than buying a lottery ticket or a gallon of milk. Dealers in Delaware, Pennsylvania, and West Virginia informed the investigators that the purchase of these kinds of ammunition is subject to no Federal, State, or local restrictions. Dealers in Alaska, Nebraska, and Oregon who advertised over the Internet told an undercover agent that he could buy the ammunition in a matter of minutes, even after he said he wanted the bullets shipped to Washington, DC, and needed them to pierce an armored limousine or theoretically take down a helicopter. Talk about homeland security.

In a single year, over 100,000 rounds of military surplus armor-piercing ammunition were sold to civilians in the United States. In addition, the gun manufacturer, Smith & Wesson, recently introduced a powerful new revolver, the .500 magnum, 4 1/2 pounds, 15 inches long, that clearly has the capability of piercing body armor using ammunition allowed under the current law.

The publication, Gun Week, reviewed the new weapon with enthusiasm: ``Behold the magic, feel the power,'' it wrote.


Many of our leaders will buy the Smith & Wesson .500 Magnum for the same reason that Edmund Hillary climbed Mt. Everest: Because it is there.


Current Federal law bans certain armor-piercing ammunition for handguns. It establishes a content-based standard. It covers ammunition that is, first of all, constructed from tungsten alloys, steel, iron, brass, bronze, beryllium, copper, or depleted uranium or, secondly, larger than .22 caliber with a jacket that weighs no more than 25 percent of the total weight of the bullet.

However, there are no restrictions on ammunition that may be manufactured from other materials but can still penetrate body armor. Even more important, there are no restrictions on armor-piercing ammunition used in rifles and assault weapons. Armor-piercing ammunition has no purpose other than penetrating bulletproof vests. It is of no use for hunting or self-defense. Such armor-piercing ammunition has no place in our society--none.

Criminals, like you Kennedy, can get body armor too.

Armor-piercing bullets that sidestep the Federal ban, such as that advertised on Hi-Vel's Web site, put the lives of American citizens and those sworn to defend American citizens in jeopardy every single day. We know the terrorists are now exploiting the weaknesses and loopholes in our gun laws. The terrorists training manual discovered by American soldiers in Afghanistan in 2001 advised al-Qaida operatives to buy assault weapons in the United States and use them against us.

Didn't they swear to uphold the Constitution as well, funny that they swear to uphold something that they don't even understand


Terrorists are bent on exploiting weaknesses in our gun laws. Just think of what a terrorist could do with a sniper rifle and only a moderate supply of armor-piercing ammunition.

Be afraid of everything, that is what your leaders need to control you


My amendment amends the Federal ban on cop-killer bullets to include a performance standard and extends the ban on centerfire rifles, which include the sniper rifles and assault weapons responsible for the deaths of 17 police officers whose body armor was penetrated by this ammunition.

That will include your scoped Remington 700

My amendment will not apply to ammunition that is now routinely used in hunting rifles or other centerfire rifles. To the contrary, it only covers ammunition that is designed or marketed as having armor-piercing capability. That is it--designed or marketed as having armor-piercing capability, such as armor-piercing ammunition that is now advertised on the Hi-Vel Web site.

Bullets that are designed or marketed to be armor piercing have no place in our society. Ducks, deer, and other wildlife do not wear body armor. Police officers do. We should not let another day pass without plugging the loopholes in the Federal law that bans cop-killer bullets.

It's not about hunting Senator Chappaquiddick


This is an issue on which mainstream gun owners and gun safety advocates can agree. I urge my colleagues to vote in support of this amendment.

Absolutely not

I reserve the remainder of my time.
SAU
 
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Re: New Assault weapon Ban

PostBy: Devil505 On: Fri Nov 28, 2008 6:14 pm

SuperBeetle wrote:
Devil505 wrote:
SuperBeetle wrote:Devil, exactly what do you see as "a common sense approach to firearms ownership here" ?



Too broad a question there Superbeetle. I'd have to see the particular law proposal but here are a few items I wouldn't object to. (Some may already be laws in some states) Here are just a few the quickly come to mind:

1. Magazine capacity--I see no legitimate need for ordinary citizens to have 30 round "banana" clips for any sport use
.


Do you mean these? :rambo: :rambo2:



Yes....Please explain the legitimate hunting or home protection "NEED" you have that those banana clips fulfill? When was the last time your home was attacked by hordes of Red Chinese troops?............Large groups of home invaders???
(I'll bet it's at least been weeks since that happened!!) :lol:


You may have a DESIRE for them, but what NEED do you have for them compared to the danger they would present in the hands of a few suicidal high school kids?
Devil505
 
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Re: New Assault weapon Ban

PostBy: coaledsweat On: Fri Nov 28, 2008 8:33 pm

Your worried about 30 rounds in a law abiding citizens weapon? I doubt if it makes much difference to a murder victim whether the bullets that kill them came from 1 30 round clip or 3 10s.
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Re: New Assault weapon Ban

PostBy: SuperBeetle On: Fri Nov 28, 2008 8:44 pm

Yes....Please explain the legitimate hunting or home protection "NEED" you have that those banana clips fulfill? When was the last time your home was attacked by hordes of Red Chinese troops?............Large groups of home invaders???
(I'll bet it's at least been weeks since that happened!!)You may have a DESIRE for them, but what NEED do you have for them compared to the danger they would present in the hands of a few suicidal high school kids?


Let's see. I don't NEED them. I can't hunt with semi-automatic rifles or pistols in PA. My home was never attacked by hordes of Red Chinese troops or any large groups of home invaders. Yes, I do desire them. I desire a lot of things. I feel the NEED to have the ability to protect myself and my loved ones from all enemies, foreign or domestic.
They fulfill my desire to shoot more and reload less while I am enjoying the sport of target shooting.

As far suicidal high school kids, it only takes one shot for that and a shotgun would be better. (IMHO)
I also have a few manually operated .22 rifles that have a capacity of over twenty shots and are all but silent when using the proper rounds. I can empty them extremely fast as well. These are apparently "non-intimidating weapons" but the end result is the same. They kill just as dead as the other guns.
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Re: New Assault weapon Ban

PostBy: cArNaGe On: Fri Nov 28, 2008 9:13 pm

Devil505 wrote:
Yes....Please explain the legitimate hunting or home protection "NEED" you have that those banana clips fulfill? When was the last time your home was attacked by hordes of Red Chinese troops?............Large groups of home invaders???
(I'll bet it's at least been weeks since that happened!!) :lol:




This is Why! :)







cArNaGe
 

Re: New Assault weapon Ban

PostBy: e.alleg On: Fri Nov 28, 2008 9:38 pm

It's fun to plink stuff with a 30 round clip, rather than have to carry more mags or stop and reload. Think about it, if someone is trying to kill you what's the difference if they have 5 rounds or 30 rounds? You will be dead by the 2nd shot anyway.
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Re: New Assault weapon Ban

PostBy: Devil505 On: Fri Nov 28, 2008 10:31 pm

SuperBeetle wrote:As far suicidal high school kids, it only takes one shot for that and a shotgun would be better. (IMHO)
I also have a few manually operated .22 rifles that have a capacity of over twenty shots and are all but silent when using the proper rounds. I can empty them extremely fast as well. These are apparently "non-intimidating weapons" but the end result is the same. They kill just as dead as the other guns.


I'm approaching this subject from the standpoint of weighing the danger a weapon (in the wrong hands) presents to us collectively vs it's necessity for being available (for sport/home defense situations) to the general, law abiding, public.
Collectively, we have already determined that fully automatic weapons should not be widely available(to even law abiding citizens)) as their danger to us all (in the wrong hands) far outweighs their usefulness.
Apply that same line of reasoning to 30 round banana clips: To the persons shot dead by the first 20 rounds, a 30 round banana clip would be no more lethal than a 20 round clip.....BUT.......To the 21st-30th victims.....Who might mange to escape or disarm the assailant while he stops to reload......The difference is life or death!


As far as your argument about 22 caliber weapons is concerned,there's a reason why no military on earth uses 22 caliber as it's main infantry weapon's ammunition......It's just not as lethal as the heavier calibers........Thus an individual has a much greater chance of surviving a 22 cal wound.
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Re: New Assault weapon Ban

PostBy: Devil505 On: Fri Nov 28, 2008 10:57 pm

e.alleg wrote:Think about it, if someone is trying to kill you what's the difference if they have 5 rounds or 30 rounds? You will be dead by the 2nd shot anyway.


It wont make any difference to me if I'm 1st thru the 5th victim shot......but if I'm the 6th thru the 30th intended target, who gets away while the assailant is reloading.....It make quite a difference!
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Re: New Assault weapon Ban

PostBy: Devil505 On: Fri Nov 28, 2008 11:01 pm

e.alleg wrote:It's fun to plink stuff with a 30 round clip, rather than have to carry more mags or stop and reload.



Some people think it would be fun to lob anti-personnel hand grenades into a crowd of people too! There is no right to FUN guaranteed by our Constitution. :lol:
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Re: New Assault weapon Ban

PostBy: cArNaGe On: Fri Nov 28, 2008 11:10 pm

While I support the ownership of assault weapons. I do not own any. I don't intend on buying any. But I believe we should as Americans have the right to own them if we choose. But I also see Devil505's side. You guys remember the bank robbers in North Hollywood? That is the reason people want gun control! Its the same everywhere you go. A few bad apples ruin the whole bunch.
cArNaGe
 

Re: New Assault weapon Ban

PostBy: SuperBeetle On: Fri Nov 28, 2008 11:24 pm

Devil505 wrote:
SuperBeetle wrote:As far suicidal high school kids, it only takes one shot for that and a shotgun would be better. (IMHO)
I also have a few manually operated .22 rifles that have a capacity of over twenty shots and are all but silent when using the proper rounds. I can empty them extremely fast as well. These are apparently "non-intimidating weapons" but the end result is the same. They kill just as dead as the other guns.


I'm approaching this subject from the standpoint of weighing the danger a weapon (in the wrong hands) presents to us collectively vs it's necessity for being available (for sport/home defense situations) to the general, law abiding, public.
Collectively, we have already determined that fully automatic weapons should not be widely available(to even law abiding citizens)) as their danger to us all (in the wrong hands) far outweighs their usefulness.
Apply that same line of reasoning to 30 round banana clips: To the persons shot dead by the first 20 rounds, a 30 round banana clip would be no more lethal than a 20 round clip.....BUT.......To the 21st-30th victims.....Who might mange to escape or disarm the assailant while he stops to reload...Apply that same line of reasoning to 30 round banana clips:


So, you are okay with a 20 rounder. (BTW, with a round in the pipe, that would be 21 shots).


As far as your argument about 22 caliber weapons is concerned,there's a reason why no military on earth uses 22 caliber as it's main infantry weapon's ammunition......It's just not as lethal as the heavier calibers........Thus an individual has a much greater chance of surviving a 22 cal wound.


I was not arguing. I was not refering to the military in any way. I was pointing out that there are other deadly high capacity weapons besides semi's with "banana clips". My feeling on this is if we start to "give in" it will just be the tip of the iceberg.
No 30 round clips then no 20 then no 10 then no 5 then no ammo.
SuperBeetle
 
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Re: New Assault weapon Ban

PostBy: coaledsweat On: Fri Nov 28, 2008 11:28 pm

You guys remember the bank robbers in North Hollywood?

Yeah, they had illegal full auto weapons, another law that did nothing to stop crimminals.
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Re: New Assault weapon Ban

PostBy: Devil505 On: Fri Nov 28, 2008 11:38 pm

SuperBeetle wrote:So, you are okay with a 20 rounder. (BTW, with a round in the pipe, that would be 21 shots).



We have to collectively agree on an admittedly "arbitrarily" set limit to weigh a sportsman's/homeowner's rights vs societal rights of self defense. If I was giving my personal opinion, it would be that a 20 rnd mag is more pref referable than a 30 rnd one but then a 10 rnd mag would be more preferable to a 20 rnd one.


SuperBeetle wrote:I was not arguing


I was using the legal concept of "Arguing One's Side" (meaning Explaining or debating) rather than "Arguing" meaning angrily fighting about something.

SuperBeetle wrote:My feeling on this is if we start to "give in" it will just be the tip of the iceberg.
No 30 round clips then no 20 then no 10 then no 5 then no ammo.


This is an "Argument" often used by the NRA with a sort of........Don't let the camel get his nose into the tent type of logic, meaning that: While this law may be ok, we should vote it down because it may lead to other, more limiting laws in the future. I never bought that argument.
Last edited by Devil505 on Fri Nov 28, 2008 11:52 pm, edited 1 time in total.
Devil505
 
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Re: New Assault weapon Ban

PostBy: SuperBeetle On: Fri Nov 28, 2008 11:40 pm

coaledsweat wrote:You guys remember the bank robbers in North Hollywood?

Yeah, they had illegal full auto weapons, another law that did nothing to stop crimminals.


Exactly right. Seems a lot of people get confused over this and think you can go to Wal-mart and buy a full auto weapons. The media tends to call a lot of weapons "automatic".
SuperBeetle
 
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