New Assault weapon Ban

Re: New Assault weapon Ban

PostBy: Devil505 On: Sun Nov 16, 2008 5:26 pm

SuperBeetle wrote:No I can not show him speaking those words. I was not there and neither were you. As far as whether I believe it............yes, I do.

Do you believe this?


In this day an age, if a politician really said something, you can be sure there's a video of him/her saying it. No video=They didn't say it

Tell you what Super......The pro-gun & anti-Obama groups in this country are so powerful & well funded that I won't believe ANY info I read unless the source of that info is:

1. A video of Obama himself saying it or posted on his website

2. A source with an ironclad neutral reputation

Anything other than that is probably from:

1. NRA
2. Fox News
3. Rush Limbaugh

In other words....Not to be trusted! ( except you can be sure you will hear things that further their agenda)


Edit: To be honest here....I have nothing against the old assault weapon ban in the first place. I can live wihout a pistol grip & flash suppressor for hunting & plinking purposes! ;)....(& I don't buy into the domino theory of being against a law because "it is just starting down the road too"....blah...blah!
Devil505
 
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Re: New Assault weapon Ban

PostBy: SuperBeetle On: Sun Nov 16, 2008 6:08 pm

How about this??

Barack Obama on Gun Control
Democratic nomine for President; Junior Senator (IL)



Ok for states & cities to determine local gun laws
Q: Is the D.C. law prohibiting ownership of handguns consistent with an individual's right to bear arms?

A: As a general principle, I believe that the Constitution confers an individual right to bear arms. But just because you have an individual right does not mean that the state or local government can't constrain the exercise of that right, in the same way that we have a right to private property but local governments can establish zoning ordinances that determine how you can use it.

Q: But do you still favor the registration & licensing of guns?

A: I think we can provide common-sense approaches to the issue of illegal guns that are ending up on the streets. We can make sure that criminals don't have guns in their hands. We can make certain that those who are mentally deranged are not getting a hold of handguns. We can trace guns that have been used in crimes to unscrupulous gun dealers that may be selling to straw purchasers and dumping them on the streets.
Source: 2008 Philadelphia primary debate, on eve of PA primary Apr 16, 2008

FactCheck: Yes, Obama endorsed Illinois handgun ban
Obama was being misleading when he denied that his handwriting had been on a document endorsing a state ban on the sale and possession of handguns in Illinois. Obama responded, "No, my writing wasn't on that particular questionnaire. As I said, I have never favored an all-out ban on handguns."

Actually, Obama's writing was on the 1996 document, which was filed when Obama was running for the Illinois state Senate. A Chicago nonprofit, Independent Voters of Illinois, had this question, and Obama took hard line:

35. Do you support state legislation to:
a. ban the manufacture, sale and possession of handguns? Yes.
b. ban assault weapons? Yes.
c. mandatory waiting periods and background checks? Yes.

Obama's campaign said, "Sen. Obama didn't fill out these state Senate questionnaires--a staffer did--and there are several answers that didn't reflect his views then or now. He may have jotted some notes on the front page of the questionnaire, but some answers didn't reflect his views."
Source: FactCheck.org analysis of 2008 Philadelphia primary debate Apr 16, 2008

Respect 2nd Amendment, but local gun bans ok
Q: You said recently, "I have no intention of taking away folks' guns." But you support the D.C. handgun ban, and you've said that it's constitutional. How do you reconcile those two positions?

A: Because I think we have two conflicting traditions in this country. I think it's important for us to recognize that we've got a tradition of handgun ownership and gun ownership generally. And a lot of law-abiding citizens use it for hunting, for sportsmanship, and for protecting their families. We also have a violence on the streets that is the result of illegal handgun usage. And so I think there is nothing wrong with a community saying we are going to take those illegal handguns off the streets. And cracking down on the various loopholes that exist in terms of background checks for children, the mentally ill. We can have reasonable, thoughtful gun control measure that I think respect the Second Amendment and people's traditions.
Source: 2008 Politico pre-Potomac Primary interview Feb 11, 2008

Provide some common-sense enforcement on gun licensing
Q: When you were in the state senate, you talked about licensing and registering gun owners. Would you do that as president?

A: I don't think that we can get that done. But what we can do is to provide just some common-sense enforcement. The efforts by law enforcement to obtain the information required to trace back guns that have been used in crimes to unscrupulous gun dealers. As president, I intend to make it happen. We essentially have two realities, when it comes to guns, in this country. You've got the tradition of lawful gun ownership. It is very important for many Americans to be able to hunt, fish, take their kids out, teach them how to shoot. Then you've got the reality of 34 Chicago public school students who get shot down on the streets of Chicago. We can reconcile those two realities by making sure the Second Amendment is respected and that people are able to lawfully own guns, but that we also start cracking down on the kinds of abuses of firearms that we see on the streets.
Source: 2008 Democratic debate in Las Vegas Jan 15, 2008

2000: cosponsored bill to limit purchases to 1 gun per month
Obama sought moderate gun control measures, such as a 2000 bill he cosponsored to limit handgun purchases to one per month (it did not pass). He voted against letting people violate local weapons bans in cases of self-defense, but also voted in2004 to let retired police officers carry concealed handguns.
Source: The Improbable Quest, by John K. Wilson, p.148 Oct 30, 2007

Concealed carry OK for retired police officers
Obama voted for a bill in the Illinois senate that allowed retired law enforcement officers to carry concealed weapons. If there was any issue on which Obama rarely deviated, it was gun control. He was the most strident candidate when it came to enforcin and expanding gun control laws. So this vote jumped out as inconsistent.

When I queried him about the vote, he said, "I didn't find that [vote] surprising. I am consistently on record and will continue to be on record as opposing concealed carry. This was a narrow exception in an exceptional circumstance where a retired police officer might find himself vulnerable as a consequence of the work he has previously done--and had been trained extensively in the proper use of firearms."

It wasn't until a few weeks later that another theory came forward about the uncharacteristic vote. Obama was battling with his GOP opponent to win the endorsement of the Fraternal Order of Police.
Source: From Promise to Power, by David Mendell, p.250-251 Aug 14, 2007

Stop unscrupulous gun dealers dumping guns in cities
Q: How would you address gun violence that continues to be the #1 cause of death among African-American men?

A: You know, when the massacre happened at Virginia Tech, I think all of us were grief stricken and shocked by the carnage. But in this year alone, in Chicago, we've had 34 Chicago public school students gunned down and killed. And for the most part, there has been silence. We know what to do. We've got to enforce the gun laws that are on the books. We've got to make sure that unscrupulous gun dealers aren't loading up vans and dumping guns in our communities, because we know they're not made in our communities. There aren't any gun manufacturers here, right here in the middle of Detroit. But what we also have to do is to make sure that we change our politics so that we care just as much about those 30-some children in Chicago who've been shot as we do the children in Virginia Tech. That's a mindset that we have to have in the White House and we don't have it right now.
Source: 2007 NAACP Presidential Primary Forum Jul 12, 2007

Keep guns out of inner cities--but also problem of morality
I believe in keeping guns out of our inner cities, and that our leaders must say so in the face of the gun manfuacturer's lobby. But I also believe that when a gangbanger shoots indiscriminately into a crowd because he feels someone disrespected him, we have a problem of morality. Not only do ew need to punish thatman for his crime, but we need to acknowledge that there's a hole in his heart, one that government programs alone may not be able to repair.
Source: The Audacity of Hope, by Barack Obama, p.215 Oct 1, 2006

Bush erred in failing to renew assault weapons ban
KEYES: [to Obama]: I am a strong believer in the second amendment. The gun control mentality is ruthlessly absurd. It suggests that we should pass a law that prevents law abiding citizens from carrying weapons. You end up with a situation where the crook have all the guns and the law abiding citizens cannot defend themselves. I guess that's good enough for Senator Obama who voted against the bill that would have allowed homeowners to defend themselves if their homes were broken into.

OBAMA: Let's be honest. Mr. Keyes does not believe in common gun control measures like the assault weapons bill. Mr. Keyes does not believe in any limits from what I can tell with respect to the possession of guns, including assault weapons that have only one purpose, to kill people. I think it is a scandal that this president did not authorize a renewal of the assault weapons ban.
Source: Illinois Senate Debate #3: Barack Obama vs. Alan Keyes Oct 21, 2004

Ban semi-automatics, and more possession restrictions
Principles that Obama supports on gun issues:
Ban the sale or transfer of all forms of semi-automatic weapons.
Increase state restrictions on the purchase and possession of firearms.
Require manufacturers to provide child-safety locks with firearms.
Source: 1998 IL State Legislative National Political Awareness Test Jul 2, 1998

Voted NO on prohibiting lawsuits against gun manufacturers.
A bill to prohibit civil liability actions from being brought or continued against manufacturers, distributors, dealers, or importers of firearms or ammunition for damages, injunctive or other relief resulting from the misuse of their products by others. Voting YES would:
Exempt lawsuits brought against individuals who knowingly transfer a firearm that will be used to commit a violent or drug-trafficking crime
Exempt lawsuits against actions that result in death, physical injury or property damage due solely to a product defect
Call for the dismissal of all qualified civil liability actions pending on the date of enactment by the court in which the action was brought
Prohibit the manufacture, import, sale or delivery of armor piercing ammunition, and sets a minimum prison term of 15 years for violations
Require all licensed importers, manufacturers and dealers who engage in the transfer of handguns to provide secure gun storage or safety devices
Reference: Protection of Lawful Commerce in Arms Act; Bill S 397 ; vote number 2005-219 on Jul 29, 2005

http://www.ontheissues.org/2008/Barack_ ... ontrol.htm
SuperBeetle
 
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Re: New Assault weapon Ban

PostBy: Devil505 On: Sun Nov 16, 2008 6:57 pm

SuperBeetle wrote:How about this??


Not even going to wade through it. Who is OnTheIssues.org?....Who funds them?.....If it's what it claims to be, there will be a video/audio tape in Obama's own, unedited words. Show me that....Then we'll talk.
(otherwise I attribute it to Swiftboaters)
Devil505
 
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Re: New Assault weapon Ban

PostBy: SuperBeetle On: Sun Nov 16, 2008 7:08 pm

OnTheIssues.org Staff
Dr. Naomi Lichtenberg, President & CEO
MA Columbia University, PhD Indiana University
Jesse Gordon, editor-in-chief & content manager
MPP Harvard University
Ram Lau, debate and convention coverage
Johns Hopkins University
Sanjaya Ghimire, technical
Volunteer Staff
Mitch Johnson, Debates & Sunday talk-show transcripts
Alan K. Jansen, Libertarian Party & 3rd-party candidates
BA Brandeis University
Bill Cooke, political books
BA Boston University, currently at U. Wisconsin-Madison
Lisa Thomas, political books
OnTheIssues.org Emeritus Staff
Cathy D. Wanzo, content editor, Senate races
MPA Harvard University
Dr. Catherine A. Womack, content editor, Vice Presidential races
MA, Univ. of S.C.; PhD, MIT
Paul Hrabal, VoteMatch manager
Proprietor of GoVote.com
Jan Innes, graphic designer
Matthew Handlemam & Vlad Koval, technical staff
Emeritus Volunteer Staff
Jeff Rushing, GOP candidates
Dr. Travis Kidd, Constitution Party candidates
Paul Wilson, Natural Law Party candidates
Tony Santini, Green Party candidates
Rob Jones, Technical coding
SuperBeetle
 
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Re: New Assault weapon Ban

PostBy: Devil505 On: Sun Nov 16, 2008 7:12 pm

SuperBeetle wrote:OnTheIssues.org Staff



Devil505 wrote:If it's what it claims to be, there will be a video/audio tape in Obama's own, unedited words. Show me that....Then we'll talk.
(otherwise I attribute it to Swiftboaters)
Devil505
 
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Re: New Assault weapon Ban

PostBy: SuperBeetle On: Sun Nov 16, 2008 7:13 pm

Now, I think you need to show something besisdes a "who is that" mentality. I have given you several sources. You have given nothing but BS as you seem to do quite often.
SuperBeetle
 
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Re: New Assault weapon Ban

PostBy: Devil505 On: Sun Nov 16, 2008 7:21 pm

SuperBeetle wrote:Now, I think you need to show something besisdes a "who is that" mentality. I have given you several sources. You have given nothing but BS as you seem to do quite often.


Look....I'm not in the mood to play tonight. Let's save you some time: I will accept NO evidence that doesn't come directly from Obama's lips or his web site...period.
Devil505
 
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Re: New Assault weapon Ban

PostBy: SuperBeetle On: Sun Nov 16, 2008 7:40 pm

I figured you would say something like that. I'm done here............... for now.
SuperBeetle
 
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Re: New Assault weapon Ban

PostBy: Ed.A On: Sun Nov 16, 2008 7:47 pm

SB has complied with Richards Rules of Debate to the extreme, and what does he recieve in reply.....It's my ball and I'm going home....Hrrrrrph! :lol:

Dick how can you say ONLY from his lips or his website? His website is constantly being SCRUBBED, go on and follow your messiah, I'll stick with reality.
Ed.A
 
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Re: New Assault weapon Ban

PostBy: Devil505 On: Sun Nov 16, 2008 8:11 pm

Ed.A wrote:SB has complied with Richards Rules of Debate to the extreme, and what does he recieve in reply.....It's my ball and I'm going home....Hrrrrrph! :lol:

Dick how can you say ONLY from his lips or his website? His website is constantly being SCRUBBED, go on and follow your messiah, I'll stick with reality.



I guess I figure we have already beaten this topic into the ground Ed. Let's just end the pointless "Obama Hates Guns" rhetoric until we have a real new law proposed or a REAL "anti-gun" executive order signed. Then we'll all have something to fight. Until then, I'm done with all the scare tactics that claim Obama wants to disarm us all.
Devil505
 
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Re: New Assault weapon Ban

PostBy: mikeandgerry On: Sun Nov 16, 2008 9:19 pm

We wouldn't have to have this conversation at all if the leftists of this country would support morality as it was known in civilization for centuries.

There were fewer gun laws in 1920 than exist today. There were fewer violent crimes, especially among youth. Obviously gun control isn't the problem. Society is the problem. It is in decay as a result of a permissive and narcissistic culture of wealth and self aggrandisement.

The problem is people; The solution is for them to behave according to a higher law.

This concept scares Dick and other liberals. As a result we have a concept called violence among youth (among other things) because no one on the left cares about the lost youth in a meaningful way. The broken societies of the inner city, the suburbs and the rural parts of America are rife with wayward youth in all social classes. Yet, no one will commit to value judgements. No one will commit to attentive childrearing. All this because no one in these wayward families will sacrifice their "rights", as outlined by the left, for the sake of their children. Therefore, there are no values among unattended youth.

Obama and the left cannot see the forest for the trees.
mikeandgerry
 
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Re: New Assault weapon Ban

PostBy: Devil505 On: Sun Nov 16, 2008 9:29 pm

mikeandgerry wrote:No one will commit to attentive childrearing. All this because no one in these wayward families will sacrifice their "rights", as outlined by the left, for the sake of their children. Therefore, there are no values among unattended youth.



Man....You must just like to see your words in print. I have raised 3 girls who are now all mature, well rounded adult women. How many kids have your raised?
Friendly advice: Try a different subject that maybe you know something about.

(there must be something out there??...Lord knows we haven't hit your area of expertise yet!! :secret: :no2: :devil:

I've got an idea:....Put Gerry on for a while! :up:
Devil505
 
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Re: New Assault weapon Ban

PostBy: tsb On: Sun Nov 16, 2008 11:42 pm

Got any pictures of these well rounded women ?
tsb
 
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Re: New Assault weapon Ban

PostBy: pvolcko On: Tue Nov 18, 2008 12:37 am

Devil505 wrote:
pvolcko wrote:Weeds aside, if they would actually write a law that narrowly and specifically it might have a fighting chance and I might be able to be brought to agree with it


I'm not sure I understand your position here Paul?? Let's try this: Would you be against a law that is narrowly written to expressly ban the public sale of ammo advertised to be armor piercing, whether effective for that purpose or not? (I would)


My position is this. I can envision a law that is narrowly scoped, explicit in what it does and intends to ban, and is equally explicit in excluding ammunition (past, present, and future) that merely has the capability of penetrating body armor, despite its other lawful purposes. .... but it is very difficult. 9mm luger can penetrate first generation body armor as can most hunting and sport shooting rifle rounds. Even if there is an exemption for past and current ammunition types that have a significant use beyond piercing armor, what about future ammunition development? Even if some new load or caliber is made of simple copper jacketed lead bullets, the speed, bullet shape, or bullet mass may be such that it can penetrate body armor despite it being intended as competition handload bullet or large game hunting round.

It's a difficult thing to accomplish. And I have to come back to, what is the problem this is attempting to address? How many people are killed in this country each year by purpose specific AP rounds that are legally acquired?

On your specific proposal: "advertised to be armor piercing"? No. Two reasons:

1) Deceptive or nefarious people who are advertising it as such, regardless of the truth behind it, would simply stop adverting it as armor piercing. Perhaps they'd move on to "maximum penetration" or some other phrase.

2) People who want to see all kinds of non-armor piercing ammo banned could simply start adverting and selling it as armor piercing and then everyone selling the same ammo, regardless of their advert practices or the truth of it being armor piercing or not, would be SOL because of some activists trying to game the system.
pvolcko
 

Re: New Assault weapon Ban

PostBy: SuperBeetle On: Fri Nov 28, 2008 11:24 am

Devil505 wrote:
SuperBeetle wrote:Devil, exactly what do you see as "a common sense approach to firearms ownership here" ?



Too broad a question there Superbeetle. I'd have to see the particular law proposal but here are a few items I wouldn't object to. (Some may already be laws in some states) Here are just a few the quickly come to mind:

1. Magazine capacity--I see no legitimate need for ordinary citizens to have 30 round "banana" clips for any sport use
.


Do you mean these? :rambo: :rambo2:
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