VIDEO of My Method of Tending the Stove.

I think, somebody checked the draft with a manometer and found the numbers to be about the same with the MPD closed or open.

Two different animals. Vacuum vs. volume of air. Vacuum will stay the same pre & post hand damper. CF of air will change drastically.

Cap wrote:

And, I'm on record as stating that I do not agree with baro's [for hand fired] 100% of the time as I strongly believe this device prevents you from producing the heat you could otherwise produce without it. I do believe they help with drastic temp & barometric pressure changes to the atmosphere as cold front's come & go and it will save you coal as it limits draft. I keep mine set tight at 2mm or higher if need be.

I guess, I could/should have mentioned that my installation has a barometric damper, as well, above the manual pipe damper. It can almost be identified in the first part of the video.

Nice job Dallas

I do it the same way. Did so on my old Chubby for near 14 years. This is the standard to strive for. But for many keeping this pattern going is hard do to scedules. I'm home most times so I can tend it well at night and in the morning still have a good fire going and do what you did in the video. Then repeat it at night before bed. During the day I check it maybe shake it a little if the outside temps are warm so the fire doesn't die down too low.
I have a detector installed near the stove and never had it go off using this method. I do have the barometric damper adjusted so it opens if the fire gets going too hot or there is wind.

Dallas wrote:Greg, Why would it only work for me and my stove? Do you feel like it the same, as you and your manual pipe draft that wouldn't work for you?

I don't quite understand your second sentance.. maybe a typo or two.??

But to answer the first question.. NO I don't think your technique is universal or will work for most stove instalations.. You must have a pretty strong draft.. If a person tries your technique either on a warm day, or with a short low draft chimney,, they will smother their fire.

Many people need to first add a little fresh coal, open the air controls or the ash pan door to get the new coal burning, THEN shake down the fire, and then add the top-off layer of fresh coal.. still leaving the ashpan door open for a few minutes to let the fresh coal catch.. Poking at or stirring a fire is not recommended except where there is an obvious dark spot that indicates a build up of ash on the grates,, blocking air flow to that spot in the coal bed..

Your video, like I said must work for you... but as has also been posted,, this will with many tight stoves and low draft chimneys be a recipe for a puff-back.. there are several threads about NOT doing what you show... many folks need to leave a hot spot or a 'pilot light' open to burn off the volitiles.

Like I said it must work for you, but I don't think it should be a 'training video' for the average modern hand feed stove instalation... MPD's are for old stoves with uncontroled or poorly controled draft, and poor air controls.. a modern airtight stove like say the Harman Mark series, a Baker, or a Gibraltar doesn't need or even want a restriction in the flue...

BTW, I like your coal scoop, nice ergonomic design,, you should do a video on making one, the patterns for the slanted cut, and lenghts of pieces etc..

Greg L

Greg, If I had to fuss with my stove, as you describe, it would be on Crag's List in a heartbeat! You told me once, that you tried a MPD and couldn't make it work. That to me says, since MPDs have been around for a hundred years or so, that "you" didn't know what you were doing, when it came to the MPD. Just because you couldn't figure it out, doesn't mean it's BAD! Also, I don't think a barometric damper does one thing to minimize carbon monoxide risks. It decreases the draft through the fire!

As Cap pointed out, an MPD does absolutely nothing to decrease the chimney "draft".

"Who" doesn't recommend poking a fire? You?

There is a lot of BS spewed forth, regarding tending a fire, thus the reason for the video. To a newbie, it must seem like a real can of worms to get a coal fire to burn. I see way too much of, "scratch underneath very carefully to remove the ashes", "layer the coal and sit and watch it and close the draft and open the draft", "don't poke, and don't shake".

OK, I'm going to go downstairs and sit and watch the stove to make sure it doesn't do anything uncalled for. NOT!

Thanks for escalating this further Dallas.. well lets say this: I know what I'm doing, I'm only a few years younger than you and I've burnt solid fuels since I was in my teens, I built several of my own wood stoves and coal stoves, I used MPD's in the past on wood stoves.. and on crappy loose stoves that had a strong chimney hooked to them... A MPD is a bandaid for a poor setup, a poor design or poor operation of a stove..

If a poll were taken, those who have MPD's would be in the minority, and most would be burning old design stoves..from 30-50 year old designs.. Or older, like Franklin stoves.. the damper was a bandaid applied to a castiron box stove that could not be sealed well if at all.. Or in inserts where a barometric damper is not able to be installed

I have a manual damper in my 'Big Bertha' boiler,, because I designed it poorly.. it's a great wood boiler, but has design flaws for burning coal.. the MPD does help some.. but it is a bandaid for an error in design.

Like I said in my first post on this topic, this obviously must work for you.. BUT as I also said in my second post.. it should not be taken as a training video for people with airtight stoves with marginal chimneys or even average chimneys..

What is put out on the forum by members sharing what works for them is NOT 'BS' as you describe it.. that's insulting to those who use those techniques and they work for them and then share them with the forum... Anymore than what you posted in your video is 'BS'... it's what works for you... I did not say anything insulting.. I just pointed out that it is not a universal video of how to opperate the average stove.. first because of the stirring and poking.. which disturbs the coal bed, which is pretty universally stated through out the forum as a bad idea... not just by me by anymeans. And second because of the manual damper, which is a rarity, a bandaid for issues with the stove or instalation.

I read EVERY post on the forum except in the techology, 'other topics' and the wood, pellets, and other fuels forums... I know what it posted on the forum, and I address each and every member's problems as specific to their instalation as possible.. I guard against posting 'universal' statements because as is often written: every instalation is different..

I'm glad that you have your technique down to what you showed in your video.. but many people have to use several more steps, and take more precautions than you show in your video... I'd hate to have a bunch of people blowing their baro damper doors off or their flue pipes off because of energetic puff-backs, or have repeatedly smothered fires... or out fires because of incorrectly used MPDs..

Greg L

Greg, I don't believe for one second, that a MPD was designed and used as a "a bandaid for an error in design". The old stoves were far more sophisticated than today's "steel boxes". (I'm not talking about stokers and the electronic controls)

Since you are car buff, was the "heat riser valve" on the old exhaust manifolds, simply a band aid for a poor design? It performed a somewhat similar function to the MPD.

LsFarm wrote: But to answer the first question.. NO I don't think your technique is universal or will work for most stove instalations.. You must have a pretty strong draft.. If a person tries your technique either on a warm day, or with a short low draft chimney, they will smother their fire.

Many people need to first add a little fresh coal, open the air controls or the ash pan door to get the new coal burning, THEN shake down the fire, and then add the top-off layer of fresh coal.. still leaving the ashpan door open for a few minutes to let the fresh coal catch.. Poking at or stirring a fire is not recommended except where there is an obvious dark spot that indicates a build up of ash on the grates,, blocking air flow to that spot in the coal bed..

Your video, like I said must work for you... but as has also been posted,, this will with many tight stoves and low draft chimneys be a recipe for a puff-back.. there are several threads about NOT doing what you show... many folks need to leave a hot spot or a 'pilot light' open to burn off the volitiles.

My experiences support Greg's suggestions. I used a manual damper on my old (not air-tight) Estate Heatrola stove to control the burn, but never completely closed it off like shown in the video. Unless it was extremely cold outside or really windy, closing the damper completely like that would smother the stove. On one very memorable occasion I reloaded the stove with fresh coal, closed the damper 90% and walked away. I came back about an hour later and noticed that the stove wasn't producing much heat so I opened the door to investigate...ka-boom! A huge flash of blue flame came out the door and blew fly ash out of every joint on the stove/pipe. After that I always gave the stove plenty of air, added the coal such that an orange spot remained visible, and left the manual damper wide open until the coal was burning well.

Since then I've upgraded to a Hitzer stove that is VERY airtight; I reused my old stovepipe so I left the manual damper installed. I have experimented using the manual damper to control the stove but found that it has no real effect on the operation of the Hitzer. I only tried closing the damper three times, twice it didn't seem to do anything and the third time the stove temperature dropped. When I take down the stove pipe at the end of the season I plan to remove the manual damper.

At the end of the day each person will need to figure out what is best for their particular setup, mostly through trial and error.

Dallas, I would be interested to see what your manual damper looks like. I have seen different designs, some that allowed a lot more smoke to pass when closed than others.

markviii wrote: Dallas, I would be interested to see what your manual damper looks like. I have seen different designs, some that allowed a lot more smoke to pass when closed than others.

My damper is for a 6" pipe, however it is probably only 5" in diameter, leaving space around the entire circumference, with several holes in the plate itself.

Dallas wrote:Greg, I don't believe for one second, that a MPD was designed and used as a "a bandaid for an error in design". The old stoves were far more sophisticated than today's "steel boxes". (I'm not talking about stokers and the electronic controls)

Since you are car buff, was the "heat riser valve" on the old exhaust manifolds, simply a band aid for a poor design? It performed a somewhat similar function to the MPD.

Actually a 'heat riser' is in no way similar to a MPD.. an automotive heat riser diverted exhaust gasses to pass under or around the intake manifold and carburetor to heat the intake, vaporize the fuel better in a cold engine, once the engine was warm, hot water replaced the hot exhaust and the 'heat riser' was opened by a bi-metal spring... The intake manifold was kept warm by engine coolant.

The 'heat riser' was never designed to restrict flow through the exhaust which is what a MPD does... restricts flow through the flue... which if the stove was airtight... like your 'steel boxes' the air flow is restricted and controled at the ashpan door..

As for your claim that old stoves were more sophisticated than modern 'steel boxes'... well, that IS 'BS'. Old stoves didn't have sealed doors, they were metal to metal. The stove bodies were made out of plates of cast iron loosely fitted together, and poorly sealed,,, hence the need for a MPD.. remember.. a bandaid for a poor design or execution of a design... The doors on old stoves were cast iron,, metal to metal 'sealing' surfaces.. no gaskets.. MORE leaks.. and more need to control the air flow through the stove.. hence a MPD....

Modern 'steel box' stoves are welded, sealed boxes with gasketed doors and often perfectly airtight air control devices... way ahead of old designs..
There is no need for a MPD in a new stove..you can control the air because they are airtight..

Greg L

markviii wrote: I only tried closing the damper three times, twice it didn't seem to do anything and the third time the stove temperature dropped.

Then obviously, the MPD was working. The purpose of the MPD is to control the burn rate. If the stove was wanted to burn hotter, the MPD was opened or if the stove was wanted to temper down, then the MPD was closed. However, even after having the MPD open and getting a hot fire going, the MPD was closed, at least part way, to keep the heat from being lost up the chimney.

LsFarm wrote:[ Old stoves didn't have sealed doors, they were metal to metal. The stove bodies were made out of plates of cast iron loosely fitted together, and poorly sealed

No, they didn't have gaskets, etc, as the things "fit".

Also, I don't agree with your analysis of a heat riser. Fact is, there was a plate restricting the exhaust flow.

http://autorepair.about.com/library/glossary/bldef-301.htm

HEAT RISER VALVE

Definition: A control valve between the exhaust manifold and exhaust pipe on one side of a V8 or V6 engine that restricts the flow of exhaust causing it to flow back through the heat riser channel under the intake manifold. This aids fuel evaporation and speeds engine warm up. A heat riser valve stuck open will slow engine warm-up and may cause hesitation and stalling when the engine is cold. A valve stuck in the closed position will greatly restrict the exhaust system and cause a noticeable lack of power and drop in fuel economy.

Dallas wrote:

markviii wrote: I only tried closing the damper three times, twice it didn't seem to do anything and the third time the stove temperature dropped.

Then obviously, the MPD was working. The purpose of the MPD is to control the burn rate. If the stove was wanted to burn hotter, the MPD was opened or if the stove was wanted to temper down, then the MPD was closed. However, even after having the MPD open and getting a hot fire going, the MPD was closed, at least part way, to keep the heat from being lost up the chimney.

I haven't messed around with it enough to determine how much of an effect it has. The automatic draft control on the Hitzer does a fine job of maintaining a constant stove temperature so I just use that.

Also, my manual damper is nearly the same size as the stove pipe, it actually drags a little bit if you turn it 180 degrees. I'm guessing it is more restrictive than the one you have installed.

As for the heat riser, I think you and Greg are both right. There is in fact a plate that restricts the exhaust flow, but it's intended purpose isn't just to restrict the exhaust for the sake of restricting it...it restricts the exhaust to force it through the exhaust passage in the intake manifold; for the reasons you listed. A heat riser valve installed on an engine without the passage through the intake would have no benefit.

Dallas wrote:

Cap wrote: Manual damper slow down draft on the outlet, stove dampers slow it down on the inlet.

I believe, that the MPD slows the "exhaust", but I don't think it decreases the "draft". I think, somebody checked the draft with a manometer and found the numbers to be about the same with the MPD closed or open.

It had no impact on stovepipe draft, overfire draft went positive when the blower runs.

Dallas wrote: As Cap pointed out, an MPD does absolutely nothing to decrease the chimney "draft".

I was referring to draft in regards to w.c. Obviously a MPD will cut back the volume of air as pointed out in numerous posts.

Keep in mind, w.c. or manometer readings is so low, we are running the draft much under 1 psi. In fact, we are drafting in a vacuum. Since your MPD is smaller diameter and has holes, the vacuum will remain constant while the volume of air ( below atmospheric pressure, still plenty of air ) will be throttled down.

1psi = 27.7" w.c.
.0018psi = .05" w.c. typical draft setting