Anti puff back device for AA.... isn't working

Anti puff back device for AA.... isn't working

PostBy: Freddy On: Sun Nov 23, 2008 9:34 pm

Problem: puff backs.

Solution: Allow air above the coal while it's running, or build an anti-puff back device that woould hold open the view port door for 10 seconds before the boiler shut off. This 10 seconds would purge explosive gasses from the burn chamber.

OK, I had some time, some parts and some ideas, but I obviously don't have enough brain to follow alllll the way through the electrics of it. I know what the problem is. I'm getting feedback that resets the timer and it self cycles endlessly. When I have more time to kill, instead of watching reruns of I Love Lucy, I'll putter some more on it. If I ever get it to work I'll clean up the wiring.

The mechanics work fine! The soloid actuates & fingers open the view port door. After 10 seconds it has purged the gasses and shuts down. The problem is it immediatly does it again, over & over. In other words, it ain't workin'!
Attachments
Anti-Boom (2).JPG
(831.12 KiB) Viewed 182 times
View: New PagePopup • Select:BBCode
[nepathumb]8710[/nepathumb]
Freddy
 
Stoker Coal Boiler: Axeman Anderson 130 (pea)
Hot Air Coal Stoker Stove: Reading piece o' junk in the barn (rice)
Coal Size/Type: Pea size, Superior, deep mined

Anti puff back device for AA.... isn't working

PostBy: whistlenut On: Sun Nov 23, 2008 9:40 pm

Mr Spock, your logic isn't correct. Where in the hell do they sell "anti-puff back" switch plate covers? A Bangor item?
You will have the EPA at you house when they see the relays, exposed wiring, blah, blah blah! Do you need a flack vest to enter the garage?
whistlenut
 
Stoker Coal Boiler: AA130's,260's, AHS130&260's,EFM900,GJ&VanWert
Hand Fed Coal Boiler: Franks Boiler,Itasca415,NYer130,Van Wert
Hot Air Coal Stoker Furnace: Yellow Flame
Hot Air Coal Stoker Stove: Alaska-4,Keystoker-2,
Hand Fed Coal Stove: Alaska,Gibraltor,Keystone,Vc Vigilant 2
Hand Fed Coal Furnace: Van Wert, NYer's, Ford,Jensen.
Coal Size/Type: Rice,Buck,Pea,Nut&Stove
Other Heating: Oil HWBB

Re: Anti puff back device for AA.... isn't working

PostBy: Scottscoaled On: Sun Nov 23, 2008 9:45 pm

All that for a brandy spanking new unit?????? Man, look at all those wires. Just call Mathaus
Scottscoaled
 
Stoker Coal Boiler: EFM 520x3, 700 Van Wert 800
Hot Air Coal Stoker Furnace: EFM 150, Keystoker 150
Coal Size/Type: Lots of buck

Visit Lehigh Anthracite

Re: Anti puff back device for AA.... isn't working

PostBy: gambler On: Sun Nov 23, 2008 9:50 pm

Looks like this guy taught you how to wire. :lol:
Attachments
200px-Unabomber.jpg
Ted Kaczynski aka unabomber
200px-Unabomber.jpg (12.39 KiB) Viewed 1478 times
Select:BBcode:
[nepafile=8711]200px-Unabomber.jpg[/nepafile]
gambler
 
Stove/Furnace Make: Leisure Line
Stove/Furnace Model: Pioneer

Re: Anti puff back device for AA.... isn't working

PostBy: jeromemsn On: Sun Nov 23, 2008 10:08 pm

Freddy I applaud your ingenuity. I think you need to add one thing something to ignite the gasses, pilot light or red hot poker or something. With my hand-fed as long as I have some sort of flame coming from the bed of coals I never have a puff back no matter how much coal I load up. I don't know but was even thinking that a battery back up device might have enough energy to charge a coil of wire hot enough to keep the gasses ignited so no puffs back and then shut off after ten min. or so and then recharge for the next go around. Better people than me here so I'll step aside now and find my seat in the gallery.
jeromemsn
 
Hot Air Coal Stoker Furnace: Keystoker 90 dvc
Hand Fed Coal Stove: Harman elite fireplace insert

Re: Anti puff back device for AA.... isn't working

PostBy: Wood'nCoal On: Sun Nov 23, 2008 10:15 pm

If I ever get it to work I'll clean up the wiring.


Someone sent Freddy some cable ties quick!

build an anti-puff back device that woould hold open the view port door for 10 seconds before the boiler shut off.


Freddy-how would this device know when it is 10 seconds before the boiler shuts off?
Last edited by Wood'nCoal on Sun Nov 23, 2008 10:17 pm, edited 1 time in total.
Wood'nCoal
 
Stoker Coal Boiler: 1959 EFM 350
Hand Fed Coal Stove: Harman Magnafire Mark I
Coal Size/Type: Rice and Chestnut
Other Heating: Fisher Fireplace Insert

Re: Anti puff back device for AA.... isn't working

PostBy: vtec350 On: Sun Nov 23, 2008 10:16 pm

Freddy, I think I saw this guy wandering around Bangor. He might be able to help you :lol: :nana:
Attachments
Einstein.jpg
(21.57 KiB) Viewed 14 times
View: New PagePopup • Select:BBCode
[nepathumb]8712[/nepathumb]
vtec350
 
Stove/Furnace Make: Keystoker
Stove/Furnace Model: KA-6

Re: Anti puff back device for AA.... isn't working

PostBy: Freddy On: Sun Nov 23, 2008 10:17 pm

Heyyy.... I said I'd clean up the wiring! LMAO. It was a whole bunch of fun.

I gave thought to a pilot light idea, but, a propane pilot wouldn't stay lit and an electric arc would be difficult to house in the burn chamber & not melt as well as be expensive to run. Even propane would cost $20 a month to keep going. I do think the best way it as I'm trying....disrupt the mixture before a flame tickles it to ignition.

I hae not had a puff back since day two. But, I think I'd gain .001% efficiency by closing the 5/8" hole. :)

The anti-boom cover plates are right next to the clap-on switches at Bangor Hardware. ;)

I think one more delay timer...break the wire going to the 120V relay duing the 10 seconds, yaaaaa, that'll do it!

You should see it work! It makes a Bzzzzzz, but holds the door open just right. *smile* No flak jacket required, just safetly glasses, a GFI circuit & a good ground wire.
Freddy
 
Stoker Coal Boiler: Axeman Anderson 130 (pea)
Hot Air Coal Stoker Stove: Reading piece o' junk in the barn (rice)
Coal Size/Type: Pea size, Superior, deep mined

Re: Anti puff back device for AA.... isn't working

PostBy: Freddy On: Sun Nov 23, 2008 10:19 pm

The red box, the delay relay, sesnes when the boiler shuts off, it instantly turns it back on along with the solonoid that actuates the finger.
Freddy
 
Stoker Coal Boiler: Axeman Anderson 130 (pea)
Hot Air Coal Stoker Stove: Reading piece o' junk in the barn (rice)
Coal Size/Type: Pea size, Superior, deep mined

Re: Anti puff back device for AA.... isn't working

PostBy: titleist1 On: Mon Nov 24, 2008 2:54 pm

Freddy wrote:The red box, the delay relay, sesnes when the boiler shuts off, it instantly turns it back on along with the solonoid that actuates the finger.


Freddy....I think it's cool that you have a device that automatically gives the finger....

However, here is a marketing tip.....

I think it will sell better for use in cars than for coal stoves! :P
titleist1
 
Hot Air Coal Stoker Stove: Harman Mag Stoker (old style) one in basement, one in workshop
Hand Fed Coal Stove: Harman Mark III on standby for long power outages
Coal Size/Type: Rice/Anthracite; Nut/Anthracite

Re: Anti puff back device for AA.... isn't working

PostBy: djackman On: Mon Nov 24, 2008 3:08 pm

What you need is a one-shot timer. Run for X seconds when the input toggles from a specific state to another.

I have a delay box from an Otis elevator control board here, might do what you need. Will look-see tonight.

What about a draft booster fan that runs for a minute or so after burner shutdown? Suck the gases out of the boiler instead.

I'm not an EE, nor did I sleep at a Holiday Inn last night, so YMMV.
djackman
 
Stove/Furnace Make: 1980 vintage Tarm
Stove/Furnace Model: FT22 (aka 202) installed!

Re: Anti puff back device for AA.... isn't working

PostBy: Matthaus On: Mon Nov 24, 2008 5:18 pm

Wow I just saw this, Freddy, think you are working too hard for a solution that can be found in proper control of draft and boiler room pressure. Although I'm not discouraging you and I must say you have worked hard to contrive some pretty fancy chinery there! :)

In order to delay off time by x seconds and actuate a solenoid to hold the flapper open you just need a delay on break timer. That way it will keep everything running for x seconds on shut off and open the flapper with you r nice little realy. The "do loop" you created by activating a 10 second delay that can repeat will never be over. :)

Best wishes for a successful science project. :D
Matthaus
 
Stoker Coal Boiler: Leisure Line WL110 Dual Fuel, natural gas
Hot Air Coal Stoker Stove: Leisure Line Lil' Heater (rental house)
Coal Size/Type: Rice and Buckwheat Anthracite

Re: Anti puff back device for AA.... isn't working

PostBy: rberq On: Mon Nov 24, 2008 8:20 pm

I would suggest wiring your first solenoid to release a billiard ball -- I recommend the nine ball -- that will roll down a ramp and trip a toggle switch to activate the door-opener solenoid, which you will couple with a second ball release on a calibrated 10-second ramp to toggle the door closed again. Train the dog to replace the billiard balls at the top of the ramp. Dogs have good hearing, so he will hear the balls drop and know when to do his job. I know this will be a challenge but still simpler than what you have now, and more entertaining to watch.
rberq
 
Hand Fed Coal Stove: DS Machine 1300
Coal Size/Type: Nut -- Kimmel/Blaschak/Reading
Other Heating: Oil hot water radiators, propane

Re: Anti puff back device for AA.... isn't working

PostBy: BIG BEAM On: Mon Nov 24, 2008 8:31 pm

Like I said before SUPERIOR coal is like runing the family car on nitro-methanol. :D This weekend I was playing with superior coal in my hand fed.I usually open the load door about 10 mins after loading and it goes woof and I'm done.This time I went to the bathroom with a magizine(dumb move) and 15 or so mins latter BOOM from the cellar.I went downstairs and the baro that has 1 screw in it and the factory clamp was at a 45*angle.Now that was a puff back.

Seems like your getting this down to a science.I think it's just a matter of timing in your case.(how much air and for how long) Good luck.
DON
BIG BEAM
 
Stove/Furnace Make: USS Hot blast
Stove/Furnace Model: 1557M

Re: Anti puff back device for AA.... isn't working

PostBy: Freddy On: Mon Nov 24, 2008 10:20 pm

I tried the 9 ball trick.... the dog took the balls & burried them out back! ;)


The timer I have I can set to be "one shot" or "delay on break" (or delay on make). I've tried every which way but keep getting feedback. Hmmmmm... I'll let it marinate in my mind for a week or two & see what I come up with. I think somehow to break the feed to the 110V relay during the 10 second run is the answer.

At this point I don't neeeed it, I just thought it'd be a fun project & it might burn a bit better with the 5/8" hole pulgged.

DJackman, a draft booster wouldn't help... hard to explain, but it would end up being the same as if the boiler was running. I apperciate the offer of parts, but I do think I have all the parts needed.... I just can't totally wrap my brain around it.....yet.

Thanks for all the tips, fun or serious, all are appreciated.

Fred
Freddy
 
Stoker Coal Boiler: Axeman Anderson 130 (pea)
Hot Air Coal Stoker Stove: Reading piece o' junk in the barn (rice)
Coal Size/Type: Pea size, Superior, deep mined

Visit Lehigh Anthracite