Fight 'gun control' this really happened!

Re: Fight 'gun control' this really happened!

PostBy: coalkirk On: Mon Nov 24, 2008 7:35 pm

In Maryland supposedly, you can only shoot an intruder if you are "in fear for your life or the life of others." If an intruder is fleeing, you have to get him to stop and trun around so that the entry wound is in the front.
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Re: Fight 'gun control' this really happened!

PostBy: e.alleg On: Mon Nov 24, 2008 7:36 pm

Gun control doesn't deter crime, it never has and most likely never will. It makes non gun owners feel safe, that's it.
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Re: Fight 'gun control' this really happened!

PostBy: Devil505 On: Mon Nov 24, 2008 9:16 pm

Machinist wrote:
Devil505 wrote:I've never heard of a homeowner shooing a burglar in his home & being convicted of a crime.


In North Whales, Pennsylvania a few years back a drunk neighbor broke into what he thought was his own home. The homes all looked similar. The owner of the home, an ex marine, shot and killed the man. The home owner was convicted and sent to jail.
I believe this and one other similar incident is holding up "stand your ground" and "castle doctrine" laws in PA.



You have a link to that story Machinist? Sounds like an "Urban Legend" to me...What was he convicted of??
(& remind me never to use his defense atty who has to be the worst that ever lived! :lol: )
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Re: Fight 'gun control' this really happened!

PostBy: Machinist On: Mon Nov 24, 2008 10:33 pm

I do not. I've been looking for it. It was either newspaper or local television news.
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Re: Fight 'gun control' this really happened!

PostBy: e.alleg On: Mon Nov 24, 2008 11:54 pm

I'll have to double check the laws, but I think PA is one of the few states that DOESN'T have the castle doctrine. In NY and 46 other states if someone breaks into your home (or your neighbor's home) and you feel he is going to kill or rape you or your family you can legally shoot the f%cker dead and get a pat on the back. Personally I would give the person a chance to surrender before opening fire but maybe that's the years of church talking.

While we're on the topic... Home defense is a skill that needs to be learned and practiced. Sometime when the wife and kids are out practice defending your home. Like when the phone rings, see how many rings it takes before you have your weapon loaded and ready to fire at someone in your hallway/basement/kid's room, etc.. If you have kids you can't keep a loaded gun under your pillow or next to your bed, that is asking for an accident. Probably the best home defense weapon is an inline muzzleloader. You can keep it loaded and it can't go off accidentally no matter what until you pop in a primer and now you have a 50 caliber in your hand.
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Re: Fight 'gun control' this really happened!

PostBy: pvolcko On: Tue Nov 25, 2008 3:09 am

NY does not have anything approaching a castle doctrine. You basically have to be backed into a corner, having had no other options for escape, and be threatened with deadly force before being able to use it yourself. Mere breaking and entering is not enough to justify use of deadly force here. You can not "stand your ground", you are advised to seek any and all escape routes. And of course, judgment of what is considered a legally required "retreat" is entirely at the DA's, judge's and ultimately a jury's discretion, so whatever you find yourself believing you have to do, make sure it will appear good to everyone that will be picking your choices apart in the aftermath. You literally have to have had no other option at any point during the event and have been all but forced or caught off guard in the same room with the attacker. The rules are more lax if you have a family in the home you are defending, then you're allowed to actually move toward an attacker's position in order to protect a family member.

That all said, DA's usually don't press things to their legal maximums so long as there is a clear case of self-defense involved.

As for defense of a neighbor. It is a very sketchy thing to try here. Short of hearing screams or cries for help, you are probably setting yourself up for a mountain of legal trouble that is likely to end very badly for you. First, it is one thing to accidentally shoot someone in your own family while defending your own home. It is something else entirely to accidentally shoot someone in your neighbor's family while defending them. You are very likely to get charged for the death criminally and also civilly. The use of deadly force in self/home defense is already a pretty sticky thing in this state. Wounded criminals or the families of those killed routinely sue those who defend themselves from attack. If you actually "pursue" an engagement in someone else's house and use deadly force, that is surely going to land you in the defendant seat and the word "vigilante" will get used repeatedly. And if you do see fit to defend a neighbor from attack, you had better not use a pistol that is registered only for premises or sportsman use because you will quite likely get the permit revoked with zero chance of ever getting it back (and quite possibly have all your other long guns taken).

NY state is one of the least self/home/family-defense friendly states in the country. The laws here require a ridiculous level of dispassionate logic and calm thought in the midst of crisis and have a borderline "guilty until you prove yourself innocent" quality to them when a prosecutor chooses to use them.

And for those wanting to know of a US case where a righteous self-defense shooting resulted in a criminal case against the defender on the basis of gun control laws and enforcement gone astray, you need look no further than Wilmette, IL and the DeMar case. Our soon-to-be fearless leader, President-elect Obama, voted in favor of Wilmette being able to prosecute DeMar, not because there was question as to the righteousness of the self-defense situation or his use of deadly force, but because DeMar used a pistol that was illegal for him to have possession of given the ban on personal pistol possession in the village of Wilmette. Thankfully Obama's position didn't carry the day and the law was passed to allow those who act in self-defense with a banned weapon to use that self-defense situation as affirmative defense against the possession infraction. Also, after the Heller decision came down, Wilmette was one of the first locales in Illinois to abolish their pistol ban.
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Re: Fight 'gun control' this really happened!

PostBy: acesover On: Tue Nov 25, 2008 6:31 am

The guy in North Whales shot the naked neighbor just outside his patio door,,,, about six times, the guy was drunk and went outside to take a leak, he went back to the worng house. I think it happened about four years back.
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Re: Fight 'gun control' this really happened!

PostBy: coalkirk On: Tue Nov 25, 2008 8:16 am

e.alleg wrote:While we're on the topic... Home defense is a skill that needs to be learned and practiced.


Two points I'd like to make on that topic. First as a resposible gun owner, I keep my guns locked in a safe in the basement. I've got a small hand gun safe in the nightstand by the bed with a 5 push button combo lock. I've practiced reaching over and entering the combo in the dark. I haven't done it recently so I should get on it. But my point iis there is a fine line between safe storage of weapons and quick and ready access when needed.

Second, if someone should break in and you are confronted with a situation where you decide to shoot, you better be thinking where is that round going to go after it passes through the low life in front of you. It would be awful to shoot and intruder and have that round go through the wall and into one of your family members. My home defense weapon is a 40 cal. Berretta and I know that round is going to keep going.

these are two things you better have thought out before confronted with an intruder situation. Once the adrenilin starts flowing you won't think about this kind of stuff unless you are Jack Bauer. (24)
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Re: Fight 'gun control' this really happened!

PostBy: Devil505 On: Tue Nov 25, 2008 8:21 am

acesover wrote:The guy in North Whales shot the naked neighbor just outside his patio door,,,, about six times, the guy was drunk and went outside to take a leak, he went back to the worng house. I think it happened about four years back.


That's what I figured & would certainly take the shooting out of the defending yourself IN your home concept of self defense. As far as I'm concerned, if you shoot someone IN your home, I can't image a jury convicting you of anything?? (I don't know what New York could be thinking about by applying a test that says you must first try to escape the house??? You have a potential murderer in your home, & even if you are alone the mere act of trying to flee may get you killed! (I'm not saying some young, overzealous prosecutor may not CHARGE you with a crime, but I can't imagine a jury convicting you. If someone has a link to such a case I'd love to read it.)
Defending a neighbor's house would be much more problematical in that self defense would be thrown out the window & I can imagine many valid questions a prosecutor would ask/charge you with.
Anyway, the old adage that it's better to be tried by 12 than carried by 6 trumps all!
Last edited by Devil505 on Tue Nov 25, 2008 8:32 am, edited 1 time in total.
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Re: Fight 'gun control' this really happened!

PostBy: Devil505 On: Tue Nov 25, 2008 8:31 am

coalkirk wrote:Second, if someone should break in and you are confronted with a situation where you decide to shoot, you better be thinking where is that round going to go after it passes through the low life in front of you. It would be awful to shoot and intruder and have that round go through the wall and into one of your family members. My home defense weapon is a 40 cal. Berretta and I know that round is going to keep going.



Good points Terry! In situations like that you will be scared to death so practice does make sense. (practice unlocking you gun, etc)

Two things I'd recommend for home defense:

1. Always keep you finger out of the trigger housing until your have committed to shoot! (give you the extra split second to decide & cut's down on accidental discharges)
2. Load you handgun with hollow point ammunition. ( lessens the chance of a round going through your attacker & hitting someone behind him & maximizes the "Stopping Power" of any caliber ammo. (hollow points will shatter/break up in the body of your attacker & deliver their full impact to that attacker, rather than pass through him.)
Last edited by Devil505 on Tue Nov 25, 2008 9:07 am, edited 2 times in total.
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Re: Fight 'gun control' this really happened!

PostBy: coalkirk On: Tue Nov 25, 2008 8:46 am

Great point on the hollow points. The clip I keep in the gun has 180 grain JHP rounds. Hopefully none of us will ever be confronted with this situation but if you are, aim for center of mass. Don't try to shoot someone in the arm or leg to just wound them. First of all your likley to miss. Secondly, if they are all hopped up on meth or crack, they might keep coming at you.
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Re: Fight 'gun control' this really happened!

PostBy: Devil505 On: Tue Nov 25, 2008 9:05 am

coalkirk wrote:Don't try to shoot someone in the arm or leg to just wound them.


What the hell are you talking about Terry!! .....When I was a kid, The Lone Ranger would always just shoot the gun out of the hand of the bad guy!! :lol:

No one I have ever known is that confident a shooter that (in a very tense situation) would just deliberately aim for a hand, arm or leg. If you need to shoot someone, like Terry says...aim for center mass & keep shooting until they are no longer a threat or you have run out of ammunition!

& always remember Winston Churchill's adage:

"When you have to kill a man, it costs nothing to be polite."
Winston Churchil
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Re: Fight 'gun control' this really happened!

PostBy: SuperBeetle On: Tue Nov 25, 2008 9:37 am

Yes it is a good idea to practice especially when it's dark. It's also a good idea to have your family members be familiar with and practice the operation af any weapon(s) that you (they) may be using. I have more than 1. My wife is actually pretty good with our weapons and has shot a .44 Mag with good results. I carry something smaller than that though. I keep a shotgun handy for home defense as well.
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Re: Fight 'gun control' this really happened!

PostBy: ken On: Tue Nov 25, 2008 12:24 pm

I think it's screwed up anywhere in the world , if they have some law you can't protect yourself and family in your own house. Those Brits need their brains checked. I live in the middle of nowhere , on a dead end dirt road , with hardly a house in sight winter time. You see no houses in the summer. I have the wheelchair ramp on the front of the house. Well that would kinda tell a bad guy , easy prey. I have my .45 auto always loaded w/HP. It goes everywhere I go in the house or the property. Even to bed with me. Shoot first , ask questions later. Everybody I know , knows not to come here in the dark unless you call first.
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Re: Fight 'gun control' this really happened!

PostBy: Devil505 On: Tue Nov 25, 2008 12:32 pm

From what I've read on this forum, a burglar would be well advised to bypass any home that has a coal burner living in it! :rambo2: :rambo: :devil:

(see coal in the yard.....keep on driving!) :lol:

Seriously.....I think it's a mindset.......Whether the problems are nature made (cold & storms) or man made ( burglars or home invaders) we are prepared to take care of ourselves & our families with no outside assistance required! :up: :box: :devil:
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