Obama and gun control

Re: Obama and gun control

PostBy: Devil505 On: Tue Jan 27, 2009 8:56 am

SuperBeetle wrote:
Devil505 wrote: We can't limit PEOPLE in our society, but we can & do have sensible limits on weapons. (machine guns, grenade launchers, etc)


So since there are already sensible limits on weapons what seems to be the problem that you think there needs to be more limits? The "crazies and suicidal teenagers"? Criminal activity? Law abiding citizens?



I don't think it would ever be wise to say..."OK...We have all the laws we'll ever need & they are perfect & can't be changed, updated or adjusted."
Over time, weapons change...attitudes change...governments change. We can't just stop things from evolving by hiding our heads in the sand.
Devil505
 
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Re: Obama and gun control

PostBy: coaledsweat On: Tue Jan 27, 2009 9:30 am

Devil505 wrote:
LeonMSPT wrote:"Weapons" don't pose a danger to society. There's where we're having problems with the gun control side of the argument. "People" with weapons pose a danger to society.


Here's where we disagree. We can't limit PEOPLE in our society, but we can & do have sensible limits on weapons. (machine guns, grenade launchers, etc)
Just imagine how many more innocent kids would have been killed at Colimbine if the 2 suicidal crazies had easy access to much more lethal weapons than shotguns & semi-automatic pistols!
IMO, to argue that there should be NO restrictions on certain weapons (& thus easy access to crazies) is not a realistic answer either.


Devil, please list one (just one) instance of an legal NFA weapon, be it machine gun, grenade, rocket launcher, howitzer or destructive device that was use in the commision of a crime. You can't do it because it has never, ever happened.

More people are run over by legally registered cars in this country then shot by guns. Where is your outrage on this?
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Re: Obama and gun control

PostBy: Devil505 On: Tue Jan 27, 2009 9:38 am

coaledsweat wrote:Devil, please list one (just one) instance of an legal NFA weapon, be it machine gun, grena


It never happened because those type weapons are not easily available to many people. They are (rightfully) strictly regulated by law. Do you disagree with my argument that the Columbine crazies would have used fully automatic weapons & grenade launchers if available to them?

coaledsweat wrote:More people are run over by legally registered cars in this country then shot by guns. Where is your outrage on this?


Here we get back to my earlier argument:

I like to apply a "Common Sense" test, rather than a "Constitutional Rights" test to these dilemmas: Weigh the potential danger a particular weapon/device poses to society vs it's utility for any lawful purpose, & let an elected group of our reps debate & decide each case. Untidy---Yes...but How else can you do it??

Obviously a legally registered car has many beneficial uses to society. A 50 cal Barret sniper rifle has none.

We seem to be constantly going over the same arguments. Obviously these are all just our opinions & I think we have all stated them pretty clearly. I doubt many minds will be changed so unless someone has a new argument/wrinkle on this, I think we've exhausted the subject......Don't you?.....LOCKED

(darn......I keep forgetting I can't do that! :oops: :lol: )
Devil505
 
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Re: Obama and gun control

PostBy: coaledsweat On: Tue Jan 27, 2009 4:00 pm

Devil505 wrote:It never happened because those type weapons are not easily available to many people. They are (rightfully) strictly regulated by law. Do you disagree with my argument that the Columbine crazies would have used fully automatic weapons & grenade launchers if available to them?


I like to apply a "Common Sense" test, rather than a "Constitutional Rights" test to these dilemmas: Weigh the potential danger a particular weapon/device poses to society vs it's utility for any lawful purpose, & let an elected group of our reps debate & decide each case. Untidy---Yes...but How else can you do it??

Obviously a legally registered car has many beneficial uses to society. A 50 cal Barret sniper rifle has none.


They used what most criminals use, what is available to them.

Well you are wrong and as an ex LEO you should know that anyone that can legally purchase a hand gun or rifle can in fact purchase a machine gun if legal in their state.

You have created the danger in your mind as it does not exist, not one instance. Prove me wrong.

Legally registered cars killed thousands last year, how many deaths by Barrett light .50 have there been? What is that? None?

Your common sense test doesn't have any common sense in it. Cars, alcohol, stairs and bathtubs, criminalize those and you will save some lives. Until someone gets killed with a papered NFA weapon, you have no case, only pablum.

Devil505 wrote:LOCKED

(darn......I keep forgetting I can't do that! :oops: :lol: )


There is a God!
coaledsweat
 
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Re: Obama and gun control

PostBy: Devil505 On: Tue Jan 27, 2009 4:21 pm

coaledsweat wrote:Well you are wrong and as an ex LEO you should know that anyone that can legally purchase a hand gun or rifle can in fact purchase a machine gun if legal in their state.



I know many people who own firearms & keep them in their homes.....I know NOT ONE person who owns fully automatic weapons. (Of course there are people out there that do, but my point is there are so few of them, compared to the huge population of gun owners in this country, that their weapons don't pose a major threat since there are so few of them around, better regulated for licensing & usually owned by serious collectors who lock them up very carefully.
If these automatic weapons were as plentiful as regular firearms, they would certainly be involved in crimes of passion.
(this line of debate is really bolstering MY argument in terms of showing how some gun control does protect the public from crazies with machine guns)
As far as your statement.... "anyone that can legally purchase a hand gun or rifle can in fact purchase a machine gun if legal in their state"... you are wrong. Federal law limits ownership of all "operable" machine guns:

It has been unlawful since 1934 (The National Firearms Act) for civilians to own machine guns without special permission from the U.S. Treasury Department. Machine guns are subject to a $200 tax every time their ownership changes from one federally registered owner to another, and each new weapon is subject to a manufacturing tax when it is made, and it must be registered with the Bureau of Alcohol Tobacco and Firearms (BATF) in its National Firearms Registry.

To become a registered owner, a complete FBI background investigation is conducted, checking for any criminal history or tendencies toward violence, and an application must be submitted to the BATF including two sets of fingerprints, a recent photo, a sworn affidavit that transfer of the NFA firearm is of "reasonable necessity," and that sale to and possession of the weapon by the applicant "would be consistent with public safety." The application form also requires the signature of a chief law enforcement officer with jurisdiction in the applicant's residence.

Since the Firearms Owners' Protection Act of May 19, 1986, ownership of newly manufactured machine guns has been prohibited to civilians. Machine guns which were manufactured prior to the Act's passage are regulated under the National Firearms Act, but those manufactured after the ban cannot ordinarily be sold to or owned by civilians
.

http://www.guncite.com/gun_control_gcfullau.html




coaledsweat wrote:Legally registered cars killed thousands last year, how many deaths by Barrett light .50 have there been? What is that? None?



Again, I return to this:..."like to apply a "Common Sense" test, rather than a "Constitutional Rights" test to these dilemmas: Weigh the potential danger a particular weapon/device poses to society vs it's utility for any lawful purpose...Obviously a legally registered car has many beneficial uses to society. A 50 cal Barret sniper rifle has none."....



It is obviously my opinion & can't be "Proven" to your satisfaction. I'm not even trying to change your mind on your opinion. Opinions are not facts that can be proven one way or the other. I'll just stand "Pat" with my opinion & let you have yours.........(even though your opinion is just flat wrong!! :P :lol: )
Last edited by Devil505 on Tue Jan 27, 2009 4:41 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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Re: Obama and gun control

PostBy: SuperBeetle On: Tue Jan 27, 2009 4:39 pm

Devil505 wrote:

I know many people who own firearms & keep them in their homes.....I know NOT ONE person who owns fully automatic weapons.


I do and now you do as well :eek2:
SuperBeetle
 
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Re: Obama and gun control

PostBy: SuperBeetle On: Tue Jan 27, 2009 4:57 pm

Devil505 wrote:If these automatic weapons were as plentiful as regular firearms, they would certainly be involved in crimes of passion.


:wtf: :yearight:

They are plentiful. You just have to pay the $$$$$ to LEGALLY own 1..............or 2..............or 3 :D
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Re: Obama and gun control

PostBy: Devil505 On: Tue Jan 27, 2009 4:57 pm

SuperBeetle wrote:I do and now you do as well :eek2:


You own?...... or you know someone who owns full auto gun/guns?
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Re: Obama and gun control

PostBy: coaledsweat On: Tue Jan 27, 2009 5:07 pm

Devil505 wrote:As far as your statement.... "anyone that can legally purchase a hand gun or rifle can in fact purchase a machine gun if legal in their state"... you are wrong. Federal law limits ownership of all "operable" machine guns:


Those limits are easily met by anyone on this board that doesn't have a felony arrest, history of mental illness, or drug problems. You are misinterpreting the law. The restriction is on weapons manufactured after 1986 (not positive on the exact year). A legit person can buy a Thompson submachine gun made in the '20s and used to murder gangsters or a BAR made in the '50s, even a quad Browning .50 caliber naval mount if he wants as long as it was made before 1986.

"Since the Firearms Owners' Protection Act of May 19, 1986, ownership of newly manufactured machine guns has been prohibited to civilians. Machine guns which were manufactured prior to the Act's passage are regulated under the National Firearms Act, but those manufactured after the ban cannot ordinarily be sold to or owned by civilians."

My italics.
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Re: Obama and gun control

PostBy: SuperBeetle On: Tue Jan 27, 2009 5:11 pm

Sorry, at this time I will remain "silent" :shh:
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Re: Obama and gun control

PostBy: Devil505 On: Tue Jan 27, 2009 5:12 pm

coaledsweat wrote:Well you are wrong and as an ex LEO you should know that anyone that can legally purchase a hand gun or rifle can in fact purchase a machine gun if legal in their state.


So you still stand by your above statement?
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Re: Obama and gun control

PostBy: coaledsweat On: Tue Jan 27, 2009 5:15 pm

Yes.
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Re: Obama and gun control

PostBy: Devil505 On: Tue Jan 27, 2009 5:27 pm

SuperBeetle wrote:Sorry, at this time I will remain "silent" :shh:


Fair enough but that just bolsters my argument that SOME gun control is good/effective in keeping SOME very dangerous weapons (full auto) out of the hands of MOST crazies by their sheer lack of availability.
IF you owned one, you are reluctant to even admit it....which is wise & prudent!




Side note:

The utility of fully automatic weapons (in police work) is debatable unless concerned with numbers of criminals, similarly equipped. (ie organized terrorists groups or very rare normal criminals like the North Hollywood bank robbers...who were killed with normal, non-full auto weapons.
As a DEA Agent, I'd much prefer a shotgun (when kicking down a door) rather than an automatic weapon...UNLESS I had reason to be concerned with numbers of bad guys. Granted, I have been out of action for a number of years now but I can remember very few occasions when an automatic weapon came with us in the field, .......& then only if accompanied by a Group Supervisor (or above) in rank, by Justice Dept Regs.
Last edited by Devil505 on Tue Jan 27, 2009 6:10 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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Re: Obama and gun control

PostBy: Devil505 On: Tue Jan 27, 2009 5:34 pm

coaledsweat wrote:Yes.



These federal regulations, required to purchase a machine gun, are over & above what you need to get a state license to purchase a hand gun or rifle:

To become a registered owner, a complete FBI background investigation is conducted, checking for any criminal history or tendencies toward violence, and an application must be submitted to the BATF including two sets of fingerprints, a recent photo, a sworn affidavit that transfer of the NFA firearm is of "reasonable necessity," and that sale to and possession of the weapon by the applicant "would be consistent with public safety." The application form also requires the signature of a chief law enforcement officer with jurisdiction in the applicant's residence.






So when you said this;
coaledsweat wrote:anyone that can legally purchase a hand gun or rifle can in fact purchase a machine gun if legal in their state.



You are clearly wrong. :P
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Re: Obama and gun control

PostBy: SuperBeetle On: Tue Jan 27, 2009 5:43 pm

Devil505 wrote:
Fair enough but that just bolsters my argument that SOME gun control is good/effective in keeping SOME very dangerous weapons (full auto) out of the hands of MOST crazies by their share lack of availability.
IF you owned one, you are reluctant to even admit it....which is wise & prudent!


So.............now you think I might be crazy :?: :rambo2: :rambo: :rofl:
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