Obama and gun control

Re: Obama and gun control

PostBy: Black_And_Blue On: Sun Jan 18, 2009 9:57 am

stockingfull wrote:
Stay tuned. Obama is a constitutional scholar. The question is whether the next things to go will be the "signing statements" and other signals of the "Unitary Executive" theory that actually constitutes the kind of governmental power grab that impeachment was designed to remedy.

Or whether he'll use that power to take your guns away. :lol:



There is a 2001 Chicago television station taped interview of him discussing his views of the Constitution.

Here's an excerpt :

"....the Supreme Court never ventured into the issues of redistribution of wealth, and of more basic issues such as political and economic justice in society. To that extent, as radical as I think people try to characterize the Warren Court, it wasn't that radical. It didn't break free from the essential constraints that were placed by the Founding Fathers in the Constitution, at least as it's been interpreted, and the Warren Court interpreted in the same way, that generally the Constitution is a charter of negative liberties. Says what the states can't do to you. Says what the federal government can't do to you, but doesn't say what the federal government or state government must do on your behalf."

A scholar of Engels and Marx would be more accurate.
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Re: Obama and gun control

PostBy: jpete On: Sun Jan 18, 2009 3:26 pm

Obama dosen't have to take the guns away. He makes microstamping mandatory, punishable by huge fines ($1000 first offense) PER ROUND. And all ammunition of the specified sizes must be destroyed by 2011.

Additionally, there will be a $.05/round tax.

This knocks out people who reload their own ammo because they won't have the ability to microstamp it. I don't own a gun, but I assume people reload because they like to shoot a lot and it's cheaper. Not reloading, plus the tax may make using their guns prohibitively expensive.

How is that different than banning guns? He gets to "keep his promise" by not flat out banning guns, but makes it expensive for owners to use them.

And how is that different than all the taxes King George imposed on the colonies which led to a revolution? Ever heard of the Boston Tea Party? It was about taxes.....
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Re: Obama and gun control

PostBy: Devil505 On: Sun Jan 18, 2009 3:46 pm

jpete wrote:How is that different than banning guns? He gets to "keep his promise" by not flat out banning guns, but makes it expensive for owners to use them.


It's different in the same way that government (us) has a legitimate interest in controlling/regulating any dangerous device that can easily kill us. There are federal regulations on everything from barbecue propane tanks to little mattress tags to High blood pressure RX's meds to Scuba tanks...ad infinitum, & every state has strict rules & regs on automobile/truck safety equipment. Firearms ARE inherently dangerous & very often used in crime. The NRA can scream it's head off, but facts are facts!
As far as these regulations costing us money.......Of course they do! (Your car won't pass your state's inspection requirement if your turn signals aren't working right?....Who pays to fix those?)
My bottom line is: any REASONABLE regulation that makes it easier for law enforcement to find & arrest a gun using criminal/Crazy Person.... makes us all safer, for a small increased cost to the user of that dangerous device. Has nothing to do with taking your guns away any more than requiring working brakes is the first step in taking our cars away.

What is "Reasonable" will always require debate & compromise in our state & federal legislatures.
Last edited by Devil505 on Mon Jan 19, 2009 3:27 pm, edited 5 times in total.
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Re: Obama and gun control

PostBy: jpete On: Sun Jan 18, 2009 3:49 pm

Devil505 wrote:
jpete wrote:How is that different than banning guns? He gets to "keep his promise" by not flat out banning guns, but makes it expensive for owners to use them.


It's different in the same way that government (us) has a legitimate interest in controlling/regulating any dangerous device that can easily kill us. There are federal regulations on everything from barbecue propane tanks to little mattress tags, & every state has strict rules & regs on automobile/truck safety equipment. Firearms ARE inherently dangerous & very often used in crime. The NRA can scream it's head off, but facts are facts!
As far as these regulations costing us money.......Of course they do! (Your car won't pass your state's inspection requirement if your turn signals aren't working right?....Who pays to fix those?)
My bottom line is: any REASONABLE regulation that make it easier for law enforcement to find & arrest a gun using criminal makes us all safer, for a small cost.

What is "Reasonable" will always require debate & compromise in our state & federal legislatures.


But you don't have a Constitutional right to "Keep and drive cars"

Driving is a privilege. Owning a gun is a right. And as successful as D.C. often is in legislating our rights away, it still doesn't make it right. OJ got away with murder, it doesn't make it right.
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Re: Obama and gun control

PostBy: SuperBeetle On: Sun Jan 18, 2009 3:54 pm

Devil,
Now that is one of the biggest lines of crap I have seen from you in a long time.
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Re: Obama and gun control

PostBy: ray in ma On: Sun Jan 18, 2009 4:05 pm

Wow some heavy political banter here.

As a kid I did a lot of hunting with my friends (used to take the first day of bird hunting off from school with dad's blessing) All of my brother in-laws are hunters (some better than others but venison is venison).

What I don't get about the whole debate and perhaps someone can enlighten me. I have no problem with people owning firearms. I believe the gist of the 2nd amendment gives citizens the right to bear arms for all lawful purposes.

So why to the people most afraid of this claim they need AK47's or 30 round clips? are you that bad a shot it takes 30 tries to bring it down? When I was learning I got 2 bullets and never carried more than a double barreled shotgun (in MA you can not use rifles for hunting but you can have a rifled black powder firearms)

What is the lawful purpose of owning an assault rifle? I can see law enforcement and military having access to these weapons but why would a normal everyday person ever need something like this?

Please I'm just trying to understand the debate on that part of the issue. You see on the news about the criminals that have high powered assault weapons and armor piercing bullets and vests better than any police department can afford but these are criminals doing crime.....
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Re: Obama and gun control

PostBy: Devil505 On: Sun Jan 18, 2009 4:05 pm

jpete wrote:But you don't have a Constitutional right to "Keep and drive cars"


You also don't have a Constitutional right to own a 20lb propane barbecue propane tank, a HAM radio or any of a number of things that the federal government regulates daily, but was invented long after our Constitution was written. Any society needs to set down rules for safely living together...That's just common sense.
You cant logically argue that....... if a potentially dangerous device,(not specifically mentioned in a document written over 200 years ago) is invented & involved in many killings, that we can't collectively decide to regulate it's use ever into the future...can you? :shock: :lol:

AND......the 1803 Supreme Court ruling in Marbury vs Madison gives us the right to interpret the Constitution as things change down through the years.

Edit: My above point was not stated very well, but what I meant to say was that many of the firearms law changes relate to things not invented back at our country's founding (ie the ability to identify bullet casings, etc) but that their Constitutionality cannot be based on whether or not they were specifically mentioned in the document itself. The Constitution is a living set of rules/concepts that must be continually interpreted to remain relevant.
Last edited by Devil505 on Mon Jan 19, 2009 3:29 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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Re: Obama and gun control

PostBy: LsFarm On: Sun Jan 18, 2009 4:17 pm

Something to think about:

GunControl.wmv
(4.87 MiB) Viewed 11 times
Select:BBcode:
[nepafile=10370]GunControl.wmv[/nepafile]



Still want 'gun control' ??

No amount of government is going to save us, or protect us from those who wish to do us harm..

' I carry a gun, because I can't carry a Cop'

Greg L
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Re: Obama and gun control

PostBy: jpete On: Sun Jan 18, 2009 4:21 pm

Devil505 wrote:
jpete wrote:But you don't have a Constitutional right to "Keep and drive cars"


You also don't have a Constitutional right to own a 20lb propane barbecue propane tank, a HAM radio or any of a number of things that the federal government regulates daily, but was invented long after our Constitution was written. Any society needs to set down rules for safely living together...That's just common sense.
You cant logically argue that....... if a potentially dangerous device,(not specifically mentioned in a document written over 200 years ago) is invented & involved in many killings, that we can't collectively decide to regulate it's use ever into the future...can you? :shock: :lol:

AND......the 1803 Supreme Court ruling in Marbury vs Madison gives us the right to interpret the Constitution as things change down through the years.

Edit: My above point was not stated very well, but what I meant to say was that many of the firearms law changes relate to things not invented back at our country's founding (ie the ability to identify bullet casings, etc) but that their Constitutionality cannot be based on whether or not they were specifically mentioned in the document itself. The Constitution is a living set of rules/concepts that must be continually interpreted to remain effective.


You don't have a RIGHT to anything that is not enumerated in the Constitution and the Bill of Rights. Period.

Is it PRUDENT to legislate things like propane cylinders? Maybe. But here's all you NEED. Your right to "Life, Liberty and the Pursuit of Happyness" If anyone deprives you of those rights, they should be punished. If I make faulty propane tanks that kill or maim people, I should not be able to buy my own justice. I should go to prison.

Once you see a few CEO's going to prison for selling melamine laden food to the US people, the problem would go away fast!
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Re: Obama and gun control

PostBy: SuperBeetle On: Sun Jan 18, 2009 4:24 pm

ray in ma wrote:Wow some heavy political banter here.



So why to the people most afraid of this claim they need AK47's or 30 round clips? are you that bad a shot it takes 30 tries to bring it down? When I was learning I got 2 bullets and never carried more than a double barreled shotgun (in MA you can not use rifles for hunting but you can have a rifled black powder firearms)

No, I am not a bad shot. Afraid, yes that could be.

What is the lawful purpose of owning an assault rifle? I can see law enforcement and military having access to these weapons but why would a normal everyday person ever need something like this?

What are you referring to as an "assault rifle"? I like to shoot. The normal everyday person is what this country is all about.

Please I'm just trying to understand the debate on that part of the issue. You see on the news about the criminals that have high powered assault weapons and armor piercing bullets and vests better than any police department can afford but these are criminals doing crime.....


The media does not always report the whole truth.
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Re: Obama and gun control

PostBy: jpete On: Sun Jan 18, 2009 4:25 pm

ray in ma wrote:Wow some heavy political banter here.

As a kid I did a lot of hunting with my friends (used to take the first day of bird hunting off from school with dad's blessing) All of my brother in-laws are hunters (some better than others but venison is venison).

What I don't get about the whole debate and perhaps someone can enlighten me. I have no problem with people owning firearms. I believe the gist of the 2nd amendment gives citizens the right to bear arms for all lawful purposes.

So why to the people most afraid of this claim they need AK47's or 30 round clips? are you that bad a shot it takes 30 tries to bring it down? When I was learning I got 2 bullets and never carried more than a double barreled shotgun (in MA you can not use rifles for hunting but you can have a rifled black powder firearms)

What is the lawful purpose of owning an assault rifle? I can see law enforcement and military having access to these weapons but why would a normal everyday person ever need something like this?

Please I'm just trying to understand the debate on that part of the issue. You see on the news about the criminals that have high powered assault weapons and armor piercing bullets and vests better than any police department can afford but these are criminals doing crime.....


The Second has nothing to do with hunting. Here's why it's there.

Declaration of Independence wrote:When, in the course of human events, it becomes necessary for one people to dissolve the political bonds which have connected them with another, and to assume among the powers of the earth, the separate and equal station to which the laws of nature and of nature's God entitle them, a decent respect to the opinions of mankind requires that they should declare the causes which impel them to the separation. .............But when a long train of abuses and usurpations, pursuing invariably the same object evinces a design to reduce them under absolute despotism, it is their right, it is their duty, to throw off such government, and to provide new guards for their future security


I don't have a gun, and I don't want one. But I'm glad there are plenty of AK's with banana clips in the hands of lawful patriots all around the country. :)
Last edited by jpete on Sun Jan 18, 2009 4:25 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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Re: Obama and gun control

PostBy: Devil505 On: Sun Jan 18, 2009 4:25 pm

LsFarm wrote:Still want 'gun control' ??


Of course I do, just as I want it mandatory that the guy driving towards me at 80 mph in his SUV has brakes that work! :lol:

I don't want to take his SUV away.........I just want it to be as safe as we (society) can make it, & I like knowing he has a license showing he knows how to drive! ;)
In the same way, Obama is NOT trying to take our guns away....He is simply trying to increase our collective saftey by making it easier for law enforcement to identify, prosecute & get dangerous guns users off the streets.

I am a long time gun owner & see no problem with these reasonable regulations, even if they cost me a few more dollars.
Last edited by Devil505 on Mon Jan 19, 2009 3:32 pm, edited 2 times in total.
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Re: Obama and gun control

PostBy: jpete On: Sun Jan 18, 2009 4:30 pm

Devil505 wrote:
LsFarm wrote:Still want 'gun control' ??


Of course I do, just as I want it mandatory that the guy driving towards me, (at 80 mph in his SUV) has brakes that work! :lol:

I don't want to take his SUV away.........I just want it to be as safe as we (society) can make it.
In the same way, Obama is NOT trying to take our guns away....He is simply trying to increase our collective saftey by making it easier for law enforcement to identify, prosecute & get dangerous guns users off the streets.

I am a long time gun owner & see no problem with these reasonable regulations, even if they cost me a few more dollars.


How many "lawful" guns are used in the commission of crimes? Not a lot. No one uses the gun registered to them to do drive bys. Maybe a guy shooting his wife, but if he didn't have a gun, he would strangle her just as easily.

And if you want to pay more taxes, be my guest. I however, do not.
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Re: Obama and gun control

PostBy: Devil505 On: Sun Jan 18, 2009 4:39 pm

jpete wrote:How many "lawful" guns are used in the commission of crimes? Not a lot.


I don't see your point??...The guns used for the Columbine school massacre were "lawful"....Let's not get sidetracked by semantics.
In the interests of staying on topic here, (Obama *& gun control) Let's not wander off into a generalized gun control debate. We've had many such debates & I'd be happy to participate again, if someone wants to start a new gun control thread. :devil:
Last edited by Devil505 on Sun Jan 18, 2009 5:11 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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Re: Obama and gun control

PostBy: SuperBeetle On: Sun Jan 18, 2009 4:45 pm

Devil505 wrote:
Of course I do, just as I want it mandatory that the guy driving towards me, (at 80 mph in his SUV) has brakes that work! :lol:
I don't want to take his SUV away.........I just want it to be as safe as we (society) can make it.


That all depends an where you drive. Not all states have a yearly mandatory "safety inspection".

In the same way, Obama is NOT trying to take our guns away....He is simply trying to increase our collective saftey by making it easier for law enforcement to identify, prosecute & get dangerous guns users off the streets
.

I'll take care of my own safety. There are already more then enough laws to get dangerous gun users off the streets.
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