Obama and gun control

Re: Obama and gun control

PostBy: jpete On: Sun Jan 18, 2009 8:26 pm

Devil, chew on this a bit:

In March 1982, 25 years ago, the small town of Kennesaw – responding to a handgun ban in Morton Grove, Ill. – unanimously passed an ordinance requiring each head of household to own and maintain a gun. Since then, despite dire predictions of "Wild West" showdowns and increased violence and accidents, not a single resident has been involved in a fatal shooting – as a victim, attacker or defender.

The crime rate initially plummeted for several years after the passage of the ordinance, with the 2005 per capita crime rate actually significantly lower than it was in 1981, the year before passage of the law.

Prior to enactment of the law, Kennesaw had a population of just 5,242 but a crime rate significantly higher (4,332 per 100,000) than the national average (3,899 per 100,000). The latest statistics available – for the year 2005 – show the rate at 2,027 per 100,000. Meanwhile, the population has skyrocketed to 28,189.

By comparison, the population of Morton Grove, the first city in Illinois to adopt a gun ban for anyone other than police officers, has actually dropped slightly and stands at 22,202, according to 2005 statistics. More significantly, perhaps, the city's crime rate increased by 15.7 percent immediately after the gun ban, even though the overall crime rate in Cook County rose only 3 percent. Today, by comparison, the township's crime rate stands at 2,268 per 100,000.
jpete
 
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Re: Obama and gun control

PostBy: tvb On: Sun Jan 18, 2009 8:28 pm

My interpretation is the 2nd Amendment is two separate statements:

1) "a well regulated Militia, being necessary to the security of a free State"

2) "the right of the people to keep and bear Arms"

and "shall not be infringed." applies to both #1 and #2.


Great - have fun with those muzzle loaders if you want to be a strict constitutional interpretation. Because, really, that is what the founders had in mind when they wrote it. Don't blow yourself up or any bits off your body loading it.
tvb
 
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Re: Obama and gun control

PostBy: Devil505 On: Sun Jan 18, 2009 8:31 pm

PC 12-47E wrote:Devil, I am in favor of the FBI backround check for each firearm purchase.


Me too. But there is still the chance that a crazy relative or burglar will get that weapon & commit a crime with it. I'm a long time gun owner (shotgun & 9mm Handgun) & had pretty good training with the Justice Dept & have carried a gun most of my life. I am not against citizens owning & carrying firearms. I am against the concept that a phrase in a 250 year old document renders us incapable of using common sense to formulate & enforce laws to protect ourselves from these crazies & criminals who will misuse their rights....& ours.



PC 12-47E wrote:obama's proposed "ammo" registration with serial #'s will make my hobby with about $10,000. invested useless.


Again, I don't know enough to either defend or argue against that specific proposal.
Devil505
 
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Re: Obama and gun control

PostBy: ray in ma On: Sun Jan 18, 2009 8:34 pm

[quote=" Your right to "Life, Liberty and the Pursuit of Happyness" If anyone deprives you of those rights, they should be punished. [/quote]

And how would this explain the Patriot Act? IMHO This has done more to erode personal liberties than any other thing in my lifetime but we haven'ts begun to think of punishing the bozo that dreamed that one up or the monkey that signed it.

BTW I have no weapons in my house. I have a Class A unrestricted permit which means in the state of MA I can carry a concealed handgun with no limit to bore size or magazine for all lawful purposes.

A well regulated militia is one of those things that has changed since our forefathers signed these empowering documents. Who has the right to establish a militia? Do a bunch of my drunk red-neck friends have the right? does the governor of my state? does the local Sheriff?

Hmm ok I'm getting out of the political debate and getting back to what I joined this forum for

COAL
ray in ma
 
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Re: Obama and gun control

PostBy: Devil505 On: Sun Jan 18, 2009 8:37 pm

jpete wrote:A small, low yield, tactical nuke is about as dangerous to me as a 9mm if the owner respects my right to "Life, Liberty, and the Pursuit of Happyness".

If he doesn't, it really doesn't matter what he kills me with, now does it?



I'll give you kudos for being consistent in your beliefs.......If you have no problem with a neighbor (with a crazy son) owning a nuclear weapon, I will not argue with you about that...That's your opinion & you have a right to it.

Just PLEASE don't move anywhere near SE Massachusetts!! :lol: :lol:
Devil505
 
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Re: Obama and gun control

PostBy: PC 12-47E On: Sun Jan 18, 2009 8:40 pm

Devil505 wrote:
PC 12-47E wrote:Devil, I am in favor of the FBI backround check for each firearm purchase.


Me too. But there is still the chance that a crazy relative or burglar will get that weapon & commit a crime with it.

Again, I don't know enough to either defend or argue against that specific proposal.


Devil if you and a burglar can enter the 750# gun safe, through bolted to the floor, in one hour... I will buy you a new Harman tlc2000.

RS
PC 12-47E
 
Hand Fed Coal Stove: Estate Heatrola, Jotul 507

Re: Obama and gun control

PostBy: ray in ma On: Sun Jan 18, 2009 8:42 pm

Ok 1 more though before I go tuck my kids in,

again IMHO we do not have a choice when it comes to political choices on the national level.
I am staunchly un-enrolled and do not believe in towing the party line. In the town where I live there is a Democrat for the Senator and a Republican for the State Rep(1 of 16 in MA). I have a tremendous amount of respect for how hard these two work for the district and feel bad that the rep's ideas often get overlooked because he is not of the correct party :mad3:

We have no choice when it comes to the president. How many actually voted for either of the two final candidates in the primaries? The limits of the electoral system and the influence of the media made Obama the president not the will of the people.

If you look at any other respected and civil democracy they have 4-6 major parties and 3 or 4 minor parties so they must build a coalition government. I lokes coalition because it has coal in it and given the quality of the folks I met here coal-ists are nice people (outside of political discussions)

So if we really fear the effects of our government lets build the CoaLition today! :yes:
ray in ma
 
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Re: Obama and gun control

PostBy: Wood'nCoal On: Sun Jan 18, 2009 8:48 pm

Don't blow yourself up or any bits off your body loading it.


:) :D
Wood'nCoal
 
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Re: Obama and gun control

PostBy: coaledsweat On: Sun Jan 18, 2009 9:02 pm

ray in ma wrote:If you look at any other respected and civil democracy they have 4-6 major parties and 3 or 4 minor parties so they must build a coalition government.


Countries with that form of government are always collapsing, no confidence, blah, blah, blah. Just look at Italy, what have they had since WWII, 63 or so different regimes? How can anything get accomplished when you are constantly reassembling the government?
The two party system obviously divides us, but it has also been our strength. ;)
coaledsweat
 
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Re: Obama and gun control

PostBy: Devil505 On: Sun Jan 18, 2009 9:02 pm

Congratulations too........US!!

A nice, friendly debate amongst coal brothers with no personal attacks & everyone's position well put!

To us! :cheers:
Devil505
 
Stove/Furnace Make: Harman
Stove/Furnace Model: TLC-2000

Re: Obama and gun control

PostBy: jpete On: Sun Jan 18, 2009 9:11 pm

coaledsweat wrote:
ray in ma wrote:The two party system obviously divides us, but it has also been our strength. ;)


A political party is a group of people who attempt to take over the government through non-violent means.

Thomas Jefferson said "If I could not go to heaven but with a party, I would not go there at all."

Political parties are not strengths. They are liabilities.

What government needs are independent thinkers who are concerned about the people rather than their infinite career.
jpete
 
Hand Fed Coal Stove: Harman Mk II
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Other Heating: Dino juice

Re: Obama and gun control

PostBy: jpete On: Sun Jan 18, 2009 9:14 pm

tvb wrote:
My interpretation is the 2nd Amendment is two separate statements:

1) "a well regulated Militia, being necessary to the security of a free State"

2) "the right of the people to keep and bear Arms"

and "shall not be infringed." applies to both #1 and #2.


Great - have fun with those muzzle loaders if you want to be a strict constitutional interpretation. Because, really, that is what the founders had in mind when they wrote it. Don't blow yourself up or any bits off your body loading it.


Where does the Second limit itself to muzzle loaders? It says "arms" which means "weapons".

"The tree of liberty must be refreshed from time to time with the blood of patriots and tyrants."
-- Thomas Jefferson

How do you think Jefferson supposed that was going to be accomplished?

If the American people need someday to overthrow their government, they need firepower. The founders knew it, and nothing has changed.
jpete
 
Hand Fed Coal Stove: Harman Mk II
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Other Heating: Dino juice

Re: Obama and gun control

PostBy: jpete On: Sun Jan 18, 2009 9:15 pm

Devil505 wrote:Just PLEASE don't move anywhere near SE Massachusetts!! :lol: :lol:


Is Rhode Island too close? :D
jpete
 
Hand Fed Coal Stove: Harman Mk II
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Re: Obama and gun control

PostBy: jpete On: Sun Jan 18, 2009 9:18 pm

Devil505 wrote:Congratulations too........US!!

A nice, friendly debate amongst coal brothers with no personal attacks & everyone's position well put!

To us! :cheers:


No need for personal attacks. I already know I'm on the losing side of this argument. :D

But I'm taking you guys down with me!! :rambo2:

;)
jpete
 
Hand Fed Coal Stove: Harman Mk II
Coal Size/Type: Stove, Nut, Pea
Other Heating: Dino juice

Re: Obama and gun control

PostBy: Devil505 On: Sun Jan 18, 2009 9:21 pm

jpete wrote:
Devil505 wrote:Just PLEASE don't move anywhere near SE Massachusetts!! :lol: :lol:


Is Rhode Island too close? :D


Hmmmm....I hear that San Francisco is a lovely area!! :lol:
Devil505
 
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