Bought A LEMON

Re: Bought A LEMON

PostBy: stoker-man On: Sat Dec 06, 2008 5:48 pm

Mine is used as a stand alone boiler, but I use all the secondary piping from my oil burner to heat the house. I don't have a fan, but it utilizes a flap controlled by a Samson control aquastat and a chain. It's 30 years old and works fabulously. No matter what the current problem is, it should work well as your entire source of heat.
stoker-man
 
Hand Fed Coal Boiler: 1981 efm wcb-24 in use 365 days a year
Coal Size/Type: Anthracite/Chestnut
Other Heating: Hearthstone wood stove

Re: Bought A LEMON

PostBy: efo141 On: Sat Dec 06, 2008 10:06 pm

slabadie wrote:Since I have a very good draft I was considering removing the fan and just putting an adjustable flap over the hole and use it in the same fashion as the one on the fan.
Why ? Is the boiler overheating? you should be able to control the draft by adjusting your barometric damper and the air shutter on the fan.
efo141
 
Stove/Furnace Make: New Yorker/Keystoker
Stove/Furnace Model: WC90-----/Kaa-2

Re: Bought A LEMON

PostBy: Richard S. On: Sat Dec 06, 2008 10:23 pm

Richard S. wrote:
slabadie wrote: Try using pea coal if you're using chestnut..


I'll emphasize that again, if you have a fire running out of control that's the first thing you should do. The pea is much more controllable and will burn longer. If you already have a big load nut get some pea, first load the nut then throw the pea over the top or try and mix them together if you have it in a bin e.g put the pea over the top and try and get half a shovel of both when loading.
Richard S.
 
Stoker Coal Boiler: Van Wert VA1200
Coal Size/Type: Buckwheat/Anthracite

Visit Lehigh Anthracite

Re: Bought A LEMON

PostBy: lene8276 On: Sun Dec 07, 2008 5:39 am

slabadie wrote:One thing that I need to clarifyis that I am trying to use this as a stand-a-lone boiler. Now I now that it is not made for this, but it was sold to me as a stand-a-lone system. I need some how to make this work, because there is no money to purchase something else. I turn to this forum for help and advice.


Try to be patient. It has taken me almost 2 months to get my hand fired stove not a boiler dialed in and iam not 100% satisfied yet. Take pictures and try to find guys with similar boilers and take advice. You may have to experiment for weeks with different setups. But trust me keep trying and keep asking questions. If you haven't heard already burning coal is a art form. Hopefully by the end end of the season your boiler will be a old friend. Finally have faith in the guys on the forum. There is many years of experience represented here.


lene
lene8276
 
Stove/Furnace Make: Reading Stove Co
Stove/Furnace Model: Mahantongo cs-45

Re: Bought A LEMON

PostBy: Freddy On: Sun Dec 07, 2008 8:43 am

Do you have a barometric damper and a manomometer?
Freddy
 
Stoker Coal Boiler: Axeman Anderson 130 (pea)
Hot Air Coal Stoker Stove: Reading piece o' junk in the barn (rice)
Coal Size/Type: Pea size, Superior, deep mined

Re: Bought A LEMON

PostBy: slabadie On: Sun Dec 07, 2008 10:14 am

I have a barometric damper (seems to work well), but I have no idea what a manomometer is.

I tried something new with this unit. I decided to go the convection route. I removed the fan and fabricated my own control flap and placed that over the hole where the resided. It took a little longer for the heat to get into the house last yesterday, but it was a success. When I got up the water temperature was at 130. Shook the coal down, filled up the firebox. So far so good. I did have to get up at 4:00 AM to shake and add some coal. Now I want to see if I can go 8 hours before adding coal.
slabadie
 
Stove/Furnace Make: New Yorker
Stove/Furnace Model: WC 90 Fuel Saver

Re: Bought A LEMON

PostBy: Freddy On: Sun Dec 07, 2008 11:10 am

A manomometer is a gauge that tells you exactly what the draft is. It's used to properly adjust the barometric damper. It's almost essential to use one for the initial setup, but most coal users buy one (Dwyer model #25 for $40ish on eBay, NOT model #27) so they can see the draft on a continual basis.

It sounds like you're one step in the right direction. They say the learning curve takes a while, but once you learn how yours operates you'll be saying "This is easier than I thought". I've not used a hand fed so just going on what I've read.
Freddy
 
Stoker Coal Boiler: Axeman Anderson 130 (pea)
Hot Air Coal Stoker Stove: Reading piece o' junk in the barn (rice)
Coal Size/Type: Pea size, Superior, deep mined

Re: Bought A LEMON

PostBy: slabadie On: Sun Dec 07, 2008 11:36 am

Thanks for the info Fred. Is this what you are talking about? [url]http://cgi.ebay.com/DWYER-MARK-II-SPRAY-PAINT-BOOTH-MANOMETER-MODEL-25_W0QQitemZ270265518665QQcmdZViewItemQQptZCommercial_Painting?_trksid=p3286.m20.l1116
[/url]
slabadie
 
Stove/Furnace Make: New Yorker
Stove/Furnace Model: WC 90 Fuel Saver

Re: Bought A LEMON

PostBy: Freddy On: Sun Dec 07, 2008 12:35 pm

slabadie wrote:Is this what you are talking about?


Yes, that's the one. We like this one not only because it works well, but because a "real one" costs a few hundred bucks. When you go to install it follow directions on how to fill it exactly and be careful. It's easy to overfill and a son of a gun to empty some out. One thing, you'll need to make a short piece of metal tube to go from the stove pipe fitting that comes with it. It only needs to be a few inches and then attach that to the rubber tube that comes with the unit or the rubber will melt. I used 1/4" copper, some have used steel, like an auto brake line.
Freddy
 
Stoker Coal Boiler: Axeman Anderson 130 (pea)
Hot Air Coal Stoker Stove: Reading piece o' junk in the barn (rice)
Coal Size/Type: Pea size, Superior, deep mined

Re: Bought A LEMON

PostBy: packard bill On: Sun Dec 07, 2008 4:30 pm

Hi slabadie,

First, you do NOT have a lemon. You have a miriad of issues which need to be addressed.
Your first priority should be to get your fire under control. That means draft control (with the barometric) and combustion air control.

The combustion air blower is there for a reason, when there is a call for heat, the hot water in the boiler goes through the radiator system (or "loop" if you will) and since heat is taken out of the water it returns to the boiler cooler. Now, if there has not been a "call" for heat in the living space for a while, and then suddenly the living space thermostat calls for heat the water begins circulating, but since the boiler fire was at idle, the combustion air blower now has to pump air into the firebox to increase the fire quickly to reheat the radiator water back up to temperature. If you convert to "natural" draft, i.e., do away with the blower, it's going to take longer to reheat the water, because it will take the coals longer to get burning hotter.
This is all under the assumption that you have a "forced" (pumped) hydronic heating system and not an old gravity circulation system ( which worked fine,you just have a lot more water to heat due to the size of your supply and return mains,and they were constant circulation).You controlled living space temperature by controlling water temperature in the system.(the hotter the radiator,the warmer the room)
I don't think the wc-90 package comes with it's own circulator pump(i could be wrong)which is why New-Yorker want's it connected in tandem with your existing boiler.Your plumber may have told you to replace the old boiler because it was so old and inneficient it wasn't worth installing a $1200-$1500 burner.
The WC-90 will work as a stand-alone boiler,but, you have the warranty issue.

You need to get someone in there who knows what he's doing.

Good Luck,
packard bill
packard bill
 
Hand Fed Coal Boiler: DS Machine and homebuilt
Hand Fed Coal Stove: Franco-Belge
Coal Size/Type: Nut,pea
Stove/Furnace Make: Franco Belge 40k
Stove/Furnace Model: D.S. Machine boiler

Re: Bought A LEMON

PostBy: djackman On: Sun Dec 07, 2008 5:10 pm

slabadie wrote:I tried something new with this unit. I decided to go the convection route. I removed the fan and fabricated my own control flap and placed that over the hole where the resided. It took a little longer for the heat to get into the house last yesterday, but it was a success. When I got up the water temperature was at 130. Shook the coal down, filled up the firebox. So far so good. I did have to get up at 4:00 AM to shake and add some coal. Now I want to see if I can go 8 hours before adding coal.


good, you've ruled out a mfg defect in the boiler allowing uncontrolled air under the fire.

If you reinstall the fan and set the cover at the same approximate area as your added "control flap" it should work the same *if* the fan is turned off.

What temperature was the aquastat for the draft fan set to turn off at? You might need to experiment with setting it "short" of your target water temp - eg if you want to maintain 170deg water set the fan aquastat to turn off at 160deg and allow the overshoot to bring it the rest of the way.

At the rate you're going you'll have it tuned in soon. By getting it right you'll get a longer burn time between reloads (and use less coal) since the boiler will idle unless heat is called for.

packard bill wrote:Your plumber may have told you to replace the old boiler because it was so old and inneficient it wasn't worth installing a $1200-$1500 burner.

"Broken" and "inefficient" are two separate things. Lazy plumber who doesn't know how or want to change bad components just condems the whole unit. Unless the burner gun was run over by a bulldozer the service tech has no excuse for NOT repairing it.
packard bill wrote: You need to get someone in there who knows what he's doing.

I'll second that - sounds like the installer didn't have a clue about coal boilers either.
djackman
 
Stove/Furnace Make: 1980 vintage Tarm
Stove/Furnace Model: FT22 (aka 202) installed!

Re: Bought A LEMON

PostBy: slabadie On: Sun Dec 07, 2008 5:20 pm

The problem with the blower was that would burn out the coal to quickly and it also made it difficult to get a wood fire started so I could use coal. Doing the convection method the house is maintaining 68 degrees. You are right about the water taking longer to heat. I do have a "forced" (pumped) hydronic heating system. When my oil burner failed, I decided to go with coal because of the fuel prices. The WC 90 is plumbed to the old furnace because of the warranty and I am using the water jacket. The furnace has been running for over 24 hours now, and will hopefully continue.
slabadie
 
Stove/Furnace Make: New Yorker
Stove/Furnace Model: WC 90 Fuel Saver

Re: Bought A LEMON

PostBy: djackman On: Sun Dec 07, 2008 6:39 pm

slabadie wrote:The problem with the blower was that would burn out the coal to quickly and it also made it difficult to get a wood fire started so I could use coal. Doing the convection method the house is maintaining 68 degrees. You are right about the water taking longer to heat.

Sounds like the fan was running too much. The fan should only be on when the water temp in the NY'er falls below a set point, and turn off when the _aquastat_ is satisfied. Was that how it was working before?

I would try setting the fan aquastat to open (shut off the fan) 10deg below the water temp you are trying to maintain. If the differential on the aquastat is adjustable set it for ~8deg. (this is what works for me on a simular boiler, YMMV)

Your manual draft method will work fine - there's thousands of others running manual stoves just like that - but you will save coal, to do less adjusting, and have faster heat response if you get the fan setup to work. It will also be easier to control on the edges of the heating season.

slabadie wrote:I do have a "forced" (pumped) hydronic heating system.


Do you have a properly working "dump" (overheat) zone?

Glad to hear it's working.
djackman
 
Stove/Furnace Make: 1980 vintage Tarm
Stove/Furnace Model: FT22 (aka 202) installed!

Re: Bought A LEMON

PostBy: slabadie On: Sun Dec 07, 2008 7:25 pm

I do have a dump zone (set at 220 degrees), but I beleive the zone is too small. Since I went with the convection process why water temp is not going to high anymore. There is one issue that I have and I think that one of the ball shuts should be closed because it looks like I am re-heating already heated water. If I can ever get the plumber to call me back, this is something for him to look at as well as repairing some leaks with his soldering.
slabadie
 
Stove/Furnace Make: New Yorker
Stove/Furnace Model: WC 90 Fuel Saver

Re: Bought A LEMON

PostBy: djackman On: Sun Dec 07, 2008 7:53 pm

slabadie wrote:I do have a dump zone (set at 220 degrees), but I beleive the zone is too small.

I'd cut that down, try something ~195 or even 190. By the time you hit 220 you've got a lot of heat to dump. Yes, the dump zone should be the largest zone in the system. The temp will somewhat depend on what your setup requires for water temp

My overheat is set at 180, 7 degree differential. The thermostatic damper control adjusted so it just closes fully when the water temp hits ~170. It's balanced fairly well - only hits the overheat if the damper door is closing after a hard burn.

slabadie wrote:There is one issue that I have and I think that one of the ball shuts should be closed because it looks like I am re-heating already heated water. If I can ever get the plumber to call me back, this is something for him to look at as well as repairing some leaks with his soldering.


You may be referring to the bypass loop. This is normal (and correct) install so that water circulates between the two boilers even when there is no call for heat. This allows the oil boiler to act as heat storage for a faster response to a call for heat AND to prevent boiling the water in the coal boiler.

The bypass valve should be partly closed. "Water is lazy" and will take the path of least resistance. If the bypass loop is "easier" it will go there instead of your heating zones.

Eeek, leaks not good news. Given that and his calling your oil boiler "unrepairable" you might want to get a 2nd opinion.

Got any pictures of the install?
djackman
 
Stove/Furnace Make: 1980 vintage Tarm
Stove/Furnace Model: FT22 (aka 202) installed!

Visit Lehigh Anthracite