Bought A LEMON

Re: Bought A LEMON

PostBy: Razzler On: Sun Dec 07, 2008 8:41 pm

slabadie Do you have the manual for your boiler? Looks like it would be a really good setup once you get the bugs worked out.
You may want to read this new yorker wc-90 add on boiler
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New yorker WC90 & 130 coal boiler.pdf
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Razzler
 
Hand Fed Coal Stove: Harman SF 250

Re: Bought A LEMON

PostBy: slabadie On: Sun Dec 07, 2008 9:05 pm

djackman

My low end aquastat (L6006A) is set to 175 degrees. This aquastat allows for differentials from 5 - 30 degrees. My circulator doesn't come on until 185 degrees. Is it possible that the aquastat is defective? My high end aquastat (L4006B) is set to 190 degrees and my dump aquastat is set at 220 degrees.
slabadie
 
Stove/Furnace Make: New Yorker
Stove/Furnace Model: WC 90 Fuel Saver

Re: Bought A LEMON

PostBy: stoker-man On: Sun Dec 07, 2008 9:53 pm

Turn your low limit up to 200. When the temp of the stove moves upward and reaches 170 on the temp gauge, turn the low limit know backwards to 170 until you hear it "click". Then the aquastat is calibrated to your gauge.
stoker-man
 
Hand Fed Coal Boiler: 1981 efm wcb-24 in use 365 days a year
Coal Size/Type: Anthracite/Chestnut
Other Heating: Hearthstone wood stove

Visit Lehigh Anthracite

Re: Bought A LEMON

PostBy: efo141 On: Sun Dec 07, 2008 10:14 pm

At what temp does your combustion fan turn on ? I have a different set up, my aquastat controls only the combustion fan. My circ. is always running to keep my hot water coil happy. My comb. fan comes on at 160 off at 170. I may have to turn it up in the colder months but right now it keeps up with 3 zones and hot water.
efo141
 
Stove/Furnace Make: New Yorker/Keystoker
Stove/Furnace Model: WC90-----/Kaa-2

Re: Bought A LEMON

PostBy: slabadie On: Sun Dec 07, 2008 10:32 pm

stoker-man

Run that by me again, you lost me.

efo141

I disconnected my combustion fan and am using the convection method. I have been trying to ge this unit to work for over a month. I have been running steady 36 hours. The circulator at present comes on at 185 and goes off at 135 once the water reaches a steady temp.
slabadie
 
Stove/Furnace Make: New Yorker
Stove/Furnace Model: WC 90 Fuel Saver

Re: Bought A LEMON

PostBy: djackman On: Mon Dec 08, 2008 1:57 am

slabadie wrote:My low end aquastat (L6006A) is set to 175 degrees. This aquastat allows for differentials from 5 - 30 degrees. My circulator doesn't come on until 185 degrees. Is it possible that the aquastat is defective? My high end aquastat (L4006B) is set to 190 degrees and my dump aquastat is set at 220 degrees.


One question is what temp are you trying to run the water at? According to the factory manual the target appears to be 190. Probably higher than you need. And what you've been fighting against. Let's assume we're shooting for 170deg.

You should have two aquastats on the WC boiler - 4006B high limit and a 6006A fan/circ control. Where is this 3rd aquastat - on your old boiler? What is it controlling?

The 4006B would turn on the dump zone a just over 170 - mabye about 185 with a 10 degree differential.

The 6006A would be set at just under 170 mabye about 160 with a 5 degree differential. Coal tends to keep burning even when the under-fire draft is reduced/stopped, so the goal is to shut the fan off at a temp below your target where the coal will "settle down" before the high limit activates.

Again, each install will require it's own tuning - this is not a oil/gas boiler. This is a rough guide.

There are many ways to wire/control a dual boiler setup that will accomplish the same goal. The aquastat in the old boiler could control the circulator between the two boilers instead of the 6006A on the WC NY'er.

FYI here is a link to the instruction manuals on your aquastats.

http://customer.honeywell.com/techlit/p ... 0-0915.pdf
djackman
 
Stove/Furnace Make: 1980 vintage Tarm
Stove/Furnace Model: FT22 (aka 202) installed!

Re: Bought A LEMON

PostBy: slabadie On: Mon Dec 08, 2008 9:17 am

djackman

When the unit was originally set up my low was 190 and the high was 200. Even though I am a tender foot with coal the first night of firing caused the water to over heat to 260 degrees and the water pressure to exceed 60 PSI. Since then I am very nervous about the system blowing it's fusible plug (which is 450 degres in the fire box). The 3rd aquastat was placed on the hot water pipe coming out of the WC90 to monitor the water temp. It's being used as an additional backup. With that said I don't know what water temp I should be trying to attain.

Last night proved to be a challenge with the temps in the single digits. I could'nt get the water temp high enough to statify the house. The temp in the house went down to 64 degrees. I thought for sure that the fire would be out by this morning, but it wasn't. I have a two story house and there was only mediocre heat on the first level at best.

The other problem is the firebox capacity is shrinking. I can't get all the ash down and there seems to be alot of coal that hasn't burned along the perimeter and a jambed the grates open this morning.
slabadie
 
Stove/Furnace Make: New Yorker
Stove/Furnace Model: WC 90 Fuel Saver

Re: Bought A LEMON

PostBy: djackman On: Mon Dec 08, 2008 12:17 pm

slabadie wrote:djackman
When the unit was originally set up my low was 190 and the high was 200. Even though I am a tender foot with coal the first night of firing caused the water to over heat to 260 degrees and the water pressure to exceed 60 PSI. Since then I am very nervous about the system blowing it's fusible plug (which is 450 degres in the fire box). The 3rd aquastat was placed on the hot water pipe coming out of the WC90 to monitor the water temp. It's being used as an additional backup. With that said I don't know what water temp I should be trying to attain.

For starters, use whatever the aquastat on your old boiler was set at, or try 170. Temp depends on a lot of things - type of radiators, how well house is insulated, etc. Properly setup you should not need to worry about the plug blowing.

The 3rd aquastat - what is it "backing up"? Configure the stove to the NY'er diagrams first, then add "features" once it works as it should.

slabadie wrote:Last night proved to be a challenge with the temps in the single digits. I could'nt get the water temp high enough to statify the house. The temp in the house went down to 64 degrees. I thought for sure that the fire would be out by this morning, but it wasn't. I have a two story house and there was only mediocre heat on the first level at best.


You're seeing is that the fan needs to run to get the full output from the boiler. You might need to run the fan manually until you can get the aquastat situation under control.

Have you considered calling New Yorker and asking for a reference to a qualified installer in your area?

slabadie wrote:The other problem is the firebox capacity is shrinking.

Look in the "hand fired stoves" section, or start a new topic there. There are many ways to clear ash buildup. Getting the fan working might help this issue since it will get the entire coal bed burning instead of just a section.
djackman
 
Stove/Furnace Make: 1980 vintage Tarm
Stove/Furnace Model: FT22 (aka 202) installed!

Re: Bought A LEMON

PostBy: stoker-man On: Mon Dec 08, 2008 12:23 pm

If you have an aquastat that controls the low limit temp: Let the boiler cool down....then....Turn your low limit up to 200. Fire up the boiler and when the temp of the stove moves upward and reaches 170 on the temp gauge, turn the low limit knob backwards to 170 until you hear it "click", considering that you have manual contact points inside. Then the aquastat is calibrated to your gauge.

Your circulator should come on when there is a call for heat, providing the water temp is above the low limit setting.
stoker-man
 
Hand Fed Coal Boiler: 1981 efm wcb-24 in use 365 days a year
Coal Size/Type: Anthracite/Chestnut
Other Heating: Hearthstone wood stove

Re: Bought A LEMON

PostBy: efo141 On: Mon Dec 08, 2008 9:01 pm

I think you could get away without the fan in warmer weather but not when its real cold. My fan has been running alot the last few nights. Try the fan, but start with a low kick on temp say 150 or 160 and watch how far it over shoots. Try the diff. at 10 and go from there. I have run my oil boiler for years at lower temps. On the coldest day of the year 170 is hot enough to meet the demand for my heat and hot water. I would rather have lower temp longer cycles than 200 water popping and snapping through the baseboards every 10 mins. Thats just my opinion. I installed my oil boiler and system myself 16 years ago and know just enough to be dangerous.
efo141
 
Stove/Furnace Make: New Yorker/Keystoker
Stove/Furnace Model: WC90-----/Kaa-2

Re: Bought A LEMON

PostBy: slabadie On: Mon Dec 08, 2008 9:17 pm

efo141

I assume you have some type of flap on your fan to control the amount of air flow. I know furnaces are different, but how high is your air flow when the temps are low?

You suggested that I start at a lower temp and watch how far the water temp over shoots. Is there an ideal top end? I have my diff. at 5 but the circulator doesn't come on until 10. I am not sure it the aquastat is defecctive or not. I fear if I set it to a diff. of 10, the circulator won't come until 20 past the setting.
slabadie
 
Stove/Furnace Make: New Yorker
Stove/Furnace Model: WC 90 Fuel Saver

Re: Bought A LEMON

PostBy: djackman On: Tue Dec 09, 2008 2:16 am

slabadie wrote:You suggested that I start at a lower temp and watch how far the water temp over shoots. Is there an ideal top end? I have my diff. at 5 but the circulator doesn't come on until 10. I am not sure it the aquastat is defecctive or not. I fear if I set it to a diff. of 10, the circulator won't come until 20 past the setting.


The differential refers to the difference in temperature an aquastat will wait for until it reactivates.

For a 4006B set at 180 with an 8 degree differential , it will close the contacts as the water rises to 180. It will not open the contacts until the water has dropped to 180deg - 8deg = 172 degrees

For the 6006A it is a little different since it is a double-throw aquastat. This is directly from the Honeywell manual:

When there is a drop in water temperature (to dial
setting, less differential), the R to B contacts make
and the R to W contacts break, preventing circulator
operation. When there is a rise in water temperature
(to dial setting), R to B contacts break and R to W
circulator contacts make.


Your fan should be on the RB contacts and the circulator between the two boilers (if there is one) should be on the RW contacts. The differential has NO effect on when the fan turns OFF, only for where the fan turns back ON

You still didn't clear up which of the 3 aquastats is controlling the fan. It should be the L6006A that is in the boiler, not the strap-on that was added as a "backup". Think of the combustion fan as a oil burner gun, it should come on when the water temp in the boiler drops and shut off once the temp is met.

As for idea water temp, the ideal temp is hot enough you can deliver enough heat to the house on a cold day but not so hot you're boiling the water. But for now just pick something in the middle - like 170deg. If you can get the boiler to maintain a desired temp you can then adjust it to your needs.

Would a little ascii art help? I had a hard time with this until I sketched it on paper.
Code: Select all
Using 4006B @ 180 w/ 8deg diff, 6006A @ 160 w/ 10deg diff

190
|
180 - 4006B contacts close (turns on dump zone)
|
172 - 4006B contacts open (turns off dump zone)
170 -  TARGET TEMP
|
160 - 6006A RB (FAN) contacts open (turn off), RW (Circ) contacts close (turn on)
|
150 - 6006A RB (FAN) contacts close (turn on), RW (Circ) contacts open (turn off)
|
140


You also need to make sure the aquastats don't "fight" each other, meaning the fan should never be able to run when the dump zone is triggered.
djackman
 
Stove/Furnace Make: 1980 vintage Tarm
Stove/Furnace Model: FT22 (aka 202) installed!

Re: Bought A LEMON

PostBy: ssupercoolss On: Tue Dec 09, 2008 8:59 am

i have a wc-90. its not a lemon. i run wood in mine, and i did try coal in mine with limited success. i think there is a big learning curve for coal in this unit, but at hearth.com there is a user happily running coal in his, if i feel the urge to run coal again, i will be picking his brain. mine is basically setup as stand-alone, although it is in series with my oil boiler. i have a circ. on my wood boiler, and a circ on my oil boiler. with series of valves and check valves, i can take the wood boiler out of the equation, for when i run the oil when i go away. after lots of reading and asking questions, i ended up using an l8124a (standard for oil boilers) and i think its the 4006 for overheat. my controls and boiler work as they should. fan on from 0 to about 180. circulator runs in betweeen 155 and 185, or so, and my overheat is set to 200. the reason your boiler got up to 260 is not your boilers fault. there is a problem with your controls. fyi - i dont have a dump zone - my overheat just runs the circulator until it falls below 190.
ssupercoolss
 

Re: Bought A LEMON

PostBy: slabadie On: Tue Dec 09, 2008 9:49 am

ssupercoolss

My plumber is using the existing circulator from my oil burner. How does a second circulator fit into the equations? Do they both run at the time time?
slabadie
 
Stove/Furnace Make: New Yorker
Stove/Furnace Model: WC 90 Fuel Saver

Re: Bought A LEMON

PostBy: efo141 On: Tue Dec 09, 2008 6:12 pm

How many zones in your house? Zone valves or circulators ? Is the coal boiler piped into your none working boiler?
efo141
 
Stove/Furnace Make: New Yorker/Keystoker
Stove/Furnace Model: WC90-----/Kaa-2

Visit Lehigh Anthracite