New Yorker Coal Furance Owners

 
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slabadie
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Post by slabadie » Mon. Dec. 22, 2008 6:23 pm

I want to clarify when the fusible plug could/will fail. Is it controled by the heat in the firebox or the temp in the water coil? Has anyones plug failed? What temp will the plug fail?


 
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coaledsweat
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Post by coaledsweat » Mon. Dec. 22, 2008 6:33 pm

http://www.newyorkerboiler.com/pdf/M24775R4-3-06.pdf

No mention of a fusible plug in the manual. Where is it located? Is it electrical or something that melts and separates?

 
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slabadie
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Post by slabadie » Mon. Dec. 22, 2008 7:46 pm

If you look at page two illustrations you will see in the right drawing a fusible plug just above the baffle. You are right that the manual doesn't mention it.

 
LeonMSPT
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Post by LeonMSPT » Mon. Dec. 22, 2008 8:19 pm

I dunno... when it gets too hot I guess. :) Sent an email to New Yorker, and will post the reply when I get it.

 
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Post by e.alleg » Mon. Dec. 22, 2008 9:02 pm

Speaking in general terms for all boilers I have ever seen, if your fusible plug fails you have experienced a meltdown and you have a major problem. The only way that thing will melt is if the boiler springs a leak, doesn't have an automatic fill valve, and runs out of water. The pressure relief valve should blow off and the high limit shutdown should occur long before the fusible plug melts.

 
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Richard S.
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Post by Richard S. » Mon. Dec. 22, 2008 9:24 pm

e.alleg wrote: and the high limit shutdown should occur long before the fusible plug melts.
It's a hand fed unit, no high limit shutdown. You could certainly accidentally overheat it, e.g leave the ash door open after filling it with 50lbs of coal..

 
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coaledsweat
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Post by coaledsweat » Tue. Dec. 23, 2008 7:06 pm

If that plug failed, your firebox would be full of water.


 
LeonMSPT
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Post by LeonMSPT » Tue. Dec. 23, 2008 7:54 pm

The engineer from New Yorker called me this morning. This is a summary of what we talked about.

The fusible plug lives in the top of the firebox, between the fire and the water. Two things must occur in order for the fusible plug to "work".

1. It has to be dry... no water. Air space in the top of the boiler. That means very low water in most heating systems, as the majority live in the basement and there's lots of water above them.

2. The temperature of the water jacket might then exceed 450 degrees, which would melt the plug and cause it to release water into the firebox and extinguish the flame.

Issues surrounding this are not many. A boiler that isn't level, allowing the slightest low water to cause an air pocket to form right over the plug... might cause this.

If the water is so low as to allow the plug to fail, you've had little to no heat for some time. The boiler would likely become hot enough to pressurize over 30 pounds and the pressure relief valve will have activated.

I have had the firebox door, per a magnetic thermometer, well in excess of 450 degrees almost every time I fire the boiler. So long as there is water in the jacket, it's working the way it's supposed to. Maximum stack temperature runs around 500 to 550 degrees at times, when it's been firing for some time.

Typically, 400 to 450 on the door, 500 or so on the stack, and she's really going and won't take long to reach 175 degrees on the aquastat and the fan drops out. Once the fan stops, unless there is absolutely no load at all, the temperature needle stays right there. It may creep up a bit further with no load, but rarely gets to 185 to activate the modine heater to blow off excess heat.

 
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Post by LeonMSPT » Tue. Dec. 23, 2008 7:55 pm

In the manual, there is reference to a Low Water Cutout... recommended in situations where the boiler is the highest point in the heating system...

 
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Post by slabadie » Tue. Dec. 23, 2008 11:25 pm

LeonMSPT

You got more out them than I did. The guy I talked to was very abrupt. All he would tell me is that the plug would blow at 450*. Based on what you are saying the water has to reach 450* not the temp of the firebox. All this time I have been keeping the door temp at or below 300* in fear of popping the cork.

Just to fill you in the first night I ran this thing the water temp got to 260* and the water pressure topped out at 75 PSI. The relief value failed to open (has been replaced). I had to manually open the value to release the steam and than slowing add the water back.

Why wouldn't there be water in the jacket? As long as the water pressure is at 12 PSI, I would assume that the is suffcient water.

What is a modine heater, does this act as your dump zone?

 
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Post by LeonMSPT » Tue. Dec. 23, 2008 11:42 pm

Re: New Yorker Coal Furance Owners
By: slabadie On: Tue Dec 23, 2008 11:25 pm

LeonMSPT

You got more out them than I did. The guy I talked to was very abrupt. All he would tell me is that the plug would blow at 450*. Based on what you are saying the water has to reach 450* not the temp of the firebox. All this time I have been keeping the door temp at or below 300* in fear of popping the cork.

**** I gathered that you were nervous about "opening it up". The water temperature is what is critical... if it's not hot enough, the firebox isn't hot enough, the chimney is not hot enough, nothing is hot enough. You can't heat water to 450 degrees... steam? Maybe... air? absolutely...

Just to fill you in the first night I ran this thing the water temp got to 260* and the water pressure topped out at 75 PSI. The relief value failed to open (has been replaced). I had to manually open the value to release the steam and than slowing add the water back.

**** I posted a reply on that thread... to the effect of... "I'd think seriously of running away." Scared me to death to read it. I've seen the results of boiler explosions, steam burns... not a good thing at all. Even aware people who are well versed in handling that kind of stuff get hurt bad from time to time. My contractor put two PRV's on the thing. He's had PRV fail before... HS TARM wood boiler looked like a football. "Never again..." He put a "T" in the line, a couple elbows, two PRV's "side by each"... I like that, alot. My father is a retired Master Plumber/Master Oil Burner man with solid fuel certification. He's not doing much now, because he has Parkinson's Disease and could never handle a job the scope of what I had done.

Why wouldn't there be water in the jacket? As long as the water pressure is at 12 PSI, I would assume that the is suffcient water.

**** Pressure is not the end all with water. Could be an air pocket at the top of the boiler (not leveled when it was set), or steam... if the metal of the water jacket reaches 450 degrees, the plug simply melts and falls out, like a "sprinkler head' in a fire suppression system. This would vent the air/steam into the firebox, and then the water would hit and put out the fire. My guess is it's gonna be a hell of a mess... inside and outside of the boiler.

What is a modine heater, does this act as your dump zone?

**** The modine is a unit heater with a blower fan on it... yes, it is the dump zone. Works well, but it hasn't come on to any degree since I opened the clean out door to break the draft until I can redo the chimney pipe with a damper in it.

Sorry you're having difficulties with the WC90. It's performed well for me so far, on coal and wood really. Wood is smokey and creosote generating, it's what it does in the water jacket type wood boiler. Can't "really" get the inside of a steel pot hot enough to burn it off well when there is water on the other side. Steel transmits heat REALLY well.

I'd test the blower fan, to get the controls squared away. Once it functions per the aquastat, (on-off at the setpoints), I'd stick it back on there. Adjust the air shutter so you can hold a fire during idle, and allow it to "come up" reasonably fast... and enjoy. You'll get it, don't give up.

 
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slabadie
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Post by slabadie » Wed. Dec. 24, 2008 4:21 pm

LeonMSPT

Do you regulate the flap on the fan based on outside temp or does it always stay the same?

Since we have the same system, you are aware of the four 3" drain plugs around the base of the boiler. My plumber did put a spicket on one of them. Since we will be having temps in the 50's on Sunday I am going to shut the system down and drain it. Two of the plugs are leaking and I have a small solder leak as well. I will also take this opportunity to install a pressure regulator. Since you are between a plumber and an engineer should I use tape or a paste on the threads of the plugs?

 
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Post by whistlenut » Wed. Dec. 24, 2008 5:29 pm

Both...and make everyone happy!

 
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Post by coaledsweat » Wed. Dec. 24, 2008 5:37 pm

If that plug lets go at 450* there won't be any water coming out of it, it will be steam.

 
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Post by Freddy » Wed. Dec. 24, 2008 7:34 pm

LeonMSPT wrote:In the manual, there is reference to a Low Water Cutout... recommended in situations where the boiler is the highest point in the heating system..
A low water cut off is required by law in Maine. It should be in all states! For $100 you have a higher level of safety and peace of mind. A low water cut off is an electrical/electronic device that goes in the supply pipe about 6 or 8" above the boiler. If the water ever gets that low it shuts power off to whatever it's wired too. In the case of wood or coal, the fan. A wood boiler should also have an "automag" dump zone valve. The automag is held closed by DC electricity and opens when it loses power allowing for gravity to remove heat to a zone above it. They keep a boiler from overheating if the power fails.


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