Not enough heat.....

Re: Not enough heat.....

PostBy: reckebecca On: Thu Jan 01, 2009 10:37 am

LsFarm wrote:Is your house really tight? with good windows and doors?? Maybe your chimney is have trouble pulling air from a tight, well sealed house?? Try opening a window an inch or two in the stove's room and watch the Baro and the draft..

Greg L.

No, the house is not tight and well sealed. There are certainly points where it is well sealed - the large picture window in the room with the stove is new but there is an open floor plan and the adjoining room's window is leaky as a sieve! The manometer would suggest that draft is not a problem - if anything, I seem to have too much draft at times - baro was 1/2 open most of the day yesterday and continues to be open part way this morning even with very little wind outside this morning. I'll try the window opening though - I'm game for anything!
reckebecca
 
Stove/Furnace Make: Saey 92

Re: Not enough heat.....

PostBy: rewinder On: Thu Jan 01, 2009 10:43 am

I've been reading you trials and tribulations with your stove, and had to go look up what it looks like. Is this the stove (pictured below)??

It looks like a nice stove from a comapny that knows it's stuff. It also is set up like my old vermont castings Vigilant, in that it has a hopper, thermostatic inlet damper, and shaker arm.

You are using the hopper and filling up it when you have a lively fire aren't you?

Those slide air inlets at the front top of the stove should be closed all the time for coal I should think,from the manual I read. You don't want any air coming in over the fire at all, only from the round flapper on the thermostat mechanism.

My stoves run well with the baro set at .05 in very cold conditions, baro is 3/4 open and pegs open in a good wind gust, which it's doing now, wind 30mph and 3 degrees outside. When it's warmer the baro is closed more. So I think your baro is setup fine.

You speak of temps of 200, is that on the pipe or on the stove top. I'd put the thermometr on the top and see what the stove temps are if you have it on the pipe now. As an example, my stove top is 600deg now and I can hold my hand on the pipe right at the chimney entrance, so you can see that the baro is cooling off the ehaust, and and reducing the draft at the same time. And the stove is pumping out some serious heat. The view from the front is tall blue flame from side to side,

When burning this hot I need to shake down every 5 or 6 hours to maintain 600 degrees at the stove top, but when it's only 20-30 and no wind it will go 8-10 hrs at 350-400deg to maintain the house temp (I shoot for 70 degrees, and have two stoves on each end of a L shaped house)

can you describe the pipe set up and chimney size, height ect? Being a rear exaust stove are you going srtaight in to the chimney or 90deg up , baro, and then chimney???

As for coal size the manual says pea I think, so I wouldn't worry about coal size right now.

try the thermometer on the stove and tell us what it reads, and see if you canhold youe hand on the pips at the chimney.

Your stove looks to have a bigger hopper and laeger actual fire mass (fire box/grate size) so you should be able to hold a hotter fire longer. That's a drawback to my stove, the smaller fore box.

Also you stated you have no stove thermostat, but you do, the lever on the right controls the round flapper, right? that mechanism must have some sort of bimetal device to react to the currant stove temp and keep the opening constant, thus keeping the temp constant. When yo look thru the ash door you said you can see the round hole with the flapper onthe other side of it. If the stove has a good fire in it, and you set the control arm at say, 8, is the flapper opened some, or is it closed?

Also can you crack open the ash pan door some and get the fire to liven up quickly, say 10 or 15 min?-- (don't ever go off and leave the door cracked open or you can have the stove over fire)


Sorry for alll the questions, but after seeing pics of the stove, I can't see how you can be having so much trouble getting it to crank out some hi btu's when you need it.

Don't give up, it'll happen I'm sure.

Here's a nice vid of a Vigilant II, not a hopper stove, but similiar to yours other than the filling bit. You can see how he revived and shakes/pokes it . Being a batch burner he has a much larger fire mass and can go longer between tending, but you stove should give you hi to low controllable burn settings too.

ash build up in my vermont coal stove?? part 1
ash build up in my vermont coal stove?? part 2

Keep us informed

Paul
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rewinder
 
Stove/Furnace Make: VT Castings--early models
Stove/Furnace Model: Vigilant, and Resolute

Re: Not enough heat.....

PostBy: rewinder On: Thu Jan 01, 2009 10:50 am

Opps while I was posting you just posted a pic of the set up. Looks like a full fire bed, but the baro is messed up it looks like The round face of the baro should be plumb andnot angled the same as the pipe is, also the hindge line of the flapper should be level. gravity is holding the baro open and it can't do it's job correctly

You needto straighten that angled pipe out so it's either running horizontal or verticle where the baro is mounted.

ALSO you'r risking exaust gasses coming into the room with the angled baro

Looking at your chimnet height. I bet you could do away with the baro, it's not too tall

How hot is the pipe at the chimney with a fire that's shown?

I think that's your whole problem!!!!!!

Paul
rewinder
 
Stove/Furnace Make: VT Castings--early models
Stove/Furnace Model: Vigilant, and Resolute

Visit Hitzer Stoves

Re: Not enough heat.....

PostBy: VigIIPeaBurner On: Thu Jan 01, 2009 11:13 am

rewinder wrote:Opps while I was posting you just posted a pic of the set up. Looks like a full fire bed, but the baro is messed up it looks like The round face of the baro should be plumb andnot angled the same as the pipe is, also the hindge line of the flapper should be level. gravity is holding the baro open and it can't do it's job correctly

You needto straighten that angled pipe out so it's either running horizontal or verticle where the baro is mounted.

ALSO you'r risking exaust gasses coming into the room with the angled baro

Looking at your chimnet height. I bet you could do away with the baro, it's not too tall

How hot is the pipe at the chimney with a fire that's shown?

I think that's your whole problem!!!!!!

Paul


I've never done this with a baro before, but in the space provided on the current set up, maybe a 90 elbow would do be adjustable enough to set the baro up correctly. Whether a baro will fit directly into an el, I don't know. If not, you could do like rewinder does and mount it in a cap.
VigIIPeaBurner
 
Hot Air Coal Stoker Furnace: Keystoker Koker
Hand Fed Coal Stove: Vermont Casting Vigilant II 2310
Other Heating: #2 Oil Furnace

Re: Not enough heat.....

PostBy: reckebecca On: Thu Jan 01, 2009 11:18 am

rewinder wrote:Opps while I was posting you just posted a pic of the set up. Looks like a full fire bed, but the baro is messed up it looks like The round face of the baro should be plumb andnot angled the same as the pipe is, also the hindge line of the flapper should be level. gravity is holding the baro open and it can't do it's job correctly

You needto straighten that angled pipe out so it's either running horizontal or verticle where the baro is mounted.

ALSO you'r risking exaust gasses coming into the room with the angled baro

Looking at your chimnet height. I bet you could do away with the baro, it's not too tall

How hot is the pipe at the chimney with a fire that's shown?

I think that's your whole problem!!!!!!

Paul


I can't straighten the pipe or plumb the baro - I have the max. number of elbows allowed for the stove now. It is level, just not plumb. It does hold itself closed at times (I added extra weight) so gravity isn't holding it open. With the baro held closed, most of the time my draft reading is too high so, I'd worry some about removing it?

Are you asking for temp before or after the baro? The temp on stove body top right now is 250.
reckebecca
 
Stove/Furnace Make: Saey 92

Re: Not enough heat.....

PostBy: rewinder On: Thu Jan 01, 2009 11:31 am

OK stove top temp is 250 as you said, can you hold yyour hand at the elbo at the wall?

How about coming straight up off the stove with a 12''or so pipe, Tee with baro, then the 45 pipe and anlging off to the chimney. The 90 and 45 pipes can be adjusted to something less than 45 or 90 to make up odd angles.

I can't understand how you can weight the flapper to have it close and not have the baro flapper with spaces above and below at 6 and 12 oclock. I still think you'd be safer with the face of the baro plumb.

One other question--- those little knobs thatcontrol the square vents above the door------- from the picture they look like the vents are open-- if you slide them to the middle don't hey close?? Or am I not understanding the closed direction???
rewinder
 
Stove/Furnace Make: VT Castings--early models
Stove/Furnace Model: Vigilant, and Resolute

Re: Not enough heat.....

PostBy: VigIIPeaBurner On: Thu Jan 01, 2009 11:38 am

reckebecca wrote:...8*....


If you leave the stove pipe set up as it is, you need to get the face baro plump/vertical and not at an angle like it is now. You should be able to do this by getting an adjustable 45 or 90 degree elbow. Fit this into the baro's T and adjust it so the face of the el is plumb/vertical, parallel to the wall where the snowman ornament is hanging or facing out to the front of the stove. Mount the baro in the plumbed el and level the baro's pivots and your baro will be set up correctly. Maybe someone can post the clearance required for the baro from the wall. Check here http://www.fieldcontrols.com/draftcontrol.php
VigIIPeaBurner
 
Hot Air Coal Stoker Furnace: Keystoker Koker
Hand Fed Coal Stove: Vermont Casting Vigilant II 2310
Other Heating: #2 Oil Furnace

Re: Not enough heat.....

PostBy: rberq On: Thu Jan 01, 2009 11:43 am

Do a test as follows: Get some heavy aluminum foil and close off the baro for a day or two, and see if that gives you more heat. It should increase draft also -- I really, really doubt that .03 to .04 is adequate for the stove.

And about that baro positioning: it is unusual to say the least. Let the stove burn out and cool off. Unscrew the baro tee at both ends. Rotate the tee so the opening faces away from the back wall (toward the camera, in the picture), and you should be able to get the face of the baro plumb or MUCH closer to plumb than it is now. Then by rotating the baro body within the opening you can level it, and get rid of most or all of the extra weight you added.
rberq
 
Hand Fed Coal Stove: DS Machine 1300
Coal Size/Type: Nut -- Kimmel/Blaschak/Reading
Other Heating: Oil hot water radiators, propane

Re: Not enough heat.....

PostBy: reckebecca On: Thu Jan 01, 2009 11:47 am

rewinder wrote:OK stove top temp is 250 as you said, can you hold yyour hand at the elbo at the wall?

How about coming straight up off the stove with a 12''or so pipe, Tee with baro, then the 45 pipe and anlging off to the chimney. The 90 and 45 pipes can be adjusted to something less than 45 or 90 to make up odd angles.

I can't understand how you can weight the flapper to have it close and not have the baro flapper with spaces above and below at 6 and 12 oclock. I still think you'd be safer with the face of the baro plumb.

One other question--- those little knobs thatcontrol the square vents above the door------- from the picture they look like the vents are open-- if you slide them to the middle don't hey close?? Or am I not understanding the closed direction???


We're makin' progress - stove temp has now hit 300 for the first time EVER!!!! Yay.

Yes, the vents were open in the picture - I hadn't yet read the email telling me to have them closed (didn't know what they did and didn't know that they should be closed (couldn't find anything about them in the manual and my dealer couldn't tell me anything about them other than "they should affect the functioning of the stove too much, you'll figure it out as you go along"!!!) I have since closed them and since then, temp has gone up! I also did a good hearty shaking at the same time.

I added 2 large paperclips hanging on the screw of the weight on the baro. lol. Maybe that's the wrong thing to do but, it made it so it would close and not simply hang open before I lit the stove.

Can't come up off of the top of the stove - exhaust comes off of the back of the stove and I have 2 elbows both at very strange angles to make the angles necessary to get to the chimney inlet - it was quite the process to get it there.

I can touch the pipe at the elbow above the baro but I cannot leave my hand on it. Should I move the thermometer up there to see what it is?
reckebecca
 
Stove/Furnace Make: Saey 92

Re: Not enough heat.....

PostBy: reckebecca On: Thu Jan 01, 2009 11:49 am

[quote="rberq"]Do a test as follows: Get some heavy aluminum foil and close off the baro for a day or two, and see if that gives you more heat. It should increase draft also -- I really, really doubt that .03 to .04 is adequate for the stove.
quote]

The manual states that .03-.04 is "ideal" for the stove for optimum burn.
reckebecca
 
Stove/Furnace Make: Saey 92

Re: Not enough heat.....

PostBy: reckebecca On: Thu Jan 01, 2009 11:54 am

VigIIPeaBurner wrote:If you leave the stove pipe set up as it is, you need to get the face baro plump/vertical and not at an angle like it is now. You should be able to do this by getting an adjustable 45 or 90 degree elbow. Fit this into the baro's T and adjust it so the face of the el is plumb/vertical, parallel to the wall where the snowman ornament is hanging or facing out to the front of the stove. Mount the baro in the plumbed el and level the baro's pivots and your baro will be set up correctly. Maybe someone can post the clearance required for the baro from the wall. Check here http://www.fieldcontrols.com/draftcontrol.php


Interesting, and very creative suggestion! I never would have thought to add an adjustable to the baro T. That I think I can do - won't be pretty ( :) ) but, if it makes the stove more functional, I'm game.
reckebecca
 
Stove/Furnace Make: Saey 92

Re: Not enough heat.....

PostBy: rewinder On: Thu Jan 01, 2009 12:01 pm

So now the square vent are closed tight right??? keep them that way unless you burn some wood. You are short circuiting the fire bed with so much air coming above the coals. This prolongs the reaction time to temp settings and fire revival times.

Pipe is still too hot I think, and you have to level that baro front. You'e not save in warmer weather with that baro angled as it is,, cause the draft will be a lot less.

Pull the stove away fromthe corner and put the baro Tee horizontal befor you 90 it up if you have to. but half way between the stove and the chimney would be better.

Not wanting to harp about this, but the angledbaro is unsafe------------

Im I correct in thinking you've beenrunning the square vent open tillnow???? Just for kicks try tinfoiling the baro shut temporarly to see what happen to the stove temp--- the pipe temp will rise a bunch

You'e getting there. you'll be opening the windows befor long~~
rewinder
 
Stove/Furnace Make: VT Castings--early models
Stove/Furnace Model: Vigilant, and Resolute

Re: Not enough heat.....

PostBy: reckebecca On: Thu Jan 01, 2009 12:19 pm

rewinder wrote:So now the square vent are closed tight right??? keep them that way unless you burn some wood. You are short circuiting the fire bed with so much air coming above the coals. This prolongs the reaction time to temp settings and fire revival times.

Pipe is still too hot I think, and you have to level that baro front. You'e not save in warmer weather with that baro angled as it is,, cause the draft will be a lot less.

Pull the stove away fromthe corner and put the baro Tee horizontal befor you 90 it up if you have to. but half way between the stove and the chimney would be better.

Not wanting to harp about this, but the angledbaro is unsafe------------

Im I correct in thinking you've beenrunning the square vent open tillnow???? Just for kicks try tinfoiling the baro shut temporarly to see what happen to the stove temp--- the pipe temp will rise a bunch

You'e getting there. you'll be opening the windows befor long~~


Yes, square vents are closed tight! :) I swear I will never touch them again! lol Had NO idea that I was shooting myself in the foot with that one. Thank you. I knew it had to be operator error!

I will change the baro - the suggestion of the elbow in the baro T I think I can make work.

With fan blowing to circulate air, living room is now 70! What a change after barely making 62 all day yesterday.
reckebecca
 
Stove/Furnace Make: Saey 92

Re: Not enough heat.....

PostBy: rewinder On: Thu Jan 01, 2009 12:26 pm

Hey rberg has the solution--- see fig H in this sketch from field--

By rotating the T till the face is plumb, then leveling the hindge pins you're set!
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Stove/Furnace Make: VT Castings--early models
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Re: Not enough heat.....

PostBy: rewinder On: Thu Jan 01, 2009 12:30 pm

Good news!!!

I knew you could sort it out. When the baro's fixed, you should be able to stoke and fill and not have to change the temp lever, then fool around with leaving the door open just before and after you tend it, and you'll get fast reaction times and less tending times. Just like that vid shows. I bet that stove will drive you out when you get used to it

Paul
rewinder
 
Stove/Furnace Make: VT Castings--early models
Stove/Furnace Model: Vigilant, and Resolute

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