Should the USA have Universal Healthcare??

Re: Should the USA have Universal Healthcare??

PostBy: Devil505 On: Sun Jan 11, 2009 12:29 am

I'll stand pat with the first line from Wikipedia "Universal health care is provided in all wealthy, industrialized countries, except for the United States."

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Universal_health_care
Last edited by Devil505 on Sun Jan 11, 2009 12:29 am, edited 1 time in total.
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Re: Should the USA have Universal Healthcare??

PostBy: hugg On: Sun Jan 11, 2009 12:29 am

The last time I went to the doctors office is spent 20 minutes traitening out my insurance info with the receptionist. 45 min. in the waiting room. then got called into a examining room and waited there for a half hour before the doc came in. :x . And by the way, I had to make an appointment 10 days in advance to see him or go to the emergency room. all for a prescription. Doctors dont want universal health because they are afraid they wont make as much money. My wife is a RN and people who have insurance get much better healthcare than those that dont. I do know there are many western european nations that are happy with their Universal heathcare.
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Re: Should the USA have Universal Healthcare??

PostBy: stockingfull On: Sun Jan 11, 2009 12:33 am

Richard S. wrote:There was a show on PBS about this and they examined a few sytems worldwide, three recurring themes kept cropping up.

  • The systems were bankrupt in many of these countries.
  • The other was that the doctors were not too happy and/or paid very well. Competition is always good and I would not want a sytem where doctors would be forced to accept some lowly wage. Just like any other profession the money is part of it and many of the brightest people might decide to go into another field if they knew they couldn't make decent money. Same thing with the hospitals.
  • Some countries had issues with providing service promptly, e.g long waiting times to see a doctor.


The first two could be said of our insurance-dominated system. The insurers have systematically crushed doctors and driven good hospitals right out of business. I handled an exec in a hospital bankruptcy; I've seen it up close and it ain't pretty.

As to the third point, if you subtracted 1/6 of the population (representing the currently uninsured fraction in the US), I'd bet the service would be quicker nearly everywhere.

But the bottom line is that it's not only better but cheaper to keep people healthy than it is to wait for acute illnesses in the population. And universal healthcare is the only feasible way to get to reach that goal.

And, at long last, it's comin'. :clap:
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Re: Should the USA have Universal Healthcare??

PostBy: plantman On: Sun Jan 11, 2009 12:41 am

Yeah, let the Government run it.........am sure that will make it better!!! HEHEHE :shock:
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Re: Should the USA have Universal Healthcare??

PostBy: ken On: Sun Jan 11, 2009 12:57 am

Britian has some of the best health care in the world for thier people. There system has been in play after WW2. Doctors get paid well and nurses. It's all about doctors here getting paid huge money. It's called greed. They could careless about the people. Hillary tried and was shot down. It can be done , but theres to much greed from doctors and insurance companies.
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Re: Should the USA have Universal Healthcare??

PostBy: Richard S. On: Sun Jan 11, 2009 1:12 am

Ken truthfully I don't think your average doctor is overpaid. They have paid a steep price in both time, energy and money invested to get to that position.
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Re: Should the USA have Universal Healthcare??

PostBy: jpete On: Sun Jan 11, 2009 1:18 am

Devil505 wrote:I'll stand pat with the first line from Wikipedia "Universal health care is provided in all wealthy, industrialized countries, except for the United States."

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Universal_health_care


The mistake you are making is that the United States is a "wealthy" country. I just got done watching IOUSA on CNN. David Walker, former head of the GAO, said, in the movie(made in '08) that the debt is 67% of GDP. Then, during the discussion, he said since the time the movie was made we have gotten to 75% of GDP.

If you owed three quarters of your annual salary in credit card debt, would you refer to yourself as "wealthy"?

The other thing people are forgetting is the CONGRESS legislated the current system into existence. What makes anyone think that more of the same is the solution?

Anyone remember $400 toilet seats and $600 hammers? Do you want those people running your health care.

Government is ALWAYS the problem. Never the solution.
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Re: Should the USA have Universal Healthcare??

PostBy: stockingfull On: Sun Jan 11, 2009 1:23 am

ken wrote:Britian has some of the best health care in the world for thier people. There system has been in play after WW2. Doctors get paid well and nurses. It's all about doctors here getting paid huge money. It's called greed. They could careless about the people. Hillary tried and was shot down. It can be done , but theres to much greed from doctors and insurance companies.


It's all about finding some balance. A generation ago, docs could name their price. People couldn't afford them and got sick. HMO's sounded good.

Then HMO's got control of the patient pools and started to dictate prices to docs and hospitals. Those who didn't "cheap it down" didn't make the "network" and thus got run out of business. Meanwhile, the words patients heard most often were "NO" and "pre-existing condition." As with nearly all insurance, it sounds great -- until you have a claim.

Neither of these extremes is what we need. One or more workable balance points can be found. But the party's over for the insurance and pharmaceutical barons.
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Re: Should the USA have Universal Health care??

PostBy: jeromemsn On: Sun Jan 11, 2009 3:11 am

This is the way I see it and this is just my opinion. First I think that what we all know as corporate in America has just gotten way out of control, and thats what they do is control and thats what needs to be taken out of the equation.
when doctors were doctors and worked from an office and then went to the hospital they had registered at it was simple and the expense was more reasonable. Then a lawyer somewhere along the line decided he could make a few bucks if he or she told a family that if they sued the doc they could make a wad of bucks and live better which in turn made the price of insurance go up which in turn made everything go up to the point that corporate stepped in and said hey we will put several docs together and insure them in one lump sum and make some money so then the insurance companies say hey we need more cash so lets buy into the corporate racket and we can make money then next came GULP the stock market yes everybody's friend the stock market the companies decided that they would make even more money by listing on one of several exchanges and at first they did (this really is going some place) problem with the stock market is the more people hear of others making money on it the more people want to join in the more join the less everyone makes and anyway to me the stock market is just a justified ponzie scheme.
Any way to get health care to a decent price what they should do is knock off the unheard of payouts for damages sheesh they are doctors not Gods. No HMO POO SSA or that stuff and no stock market.
1. We pay for what a drug cost (noticed how many drugs are just plain killing people and not helping)
2. We pay for a doctors visit (our time is just as valuable as there time I say if you wait for more than a half hour you get the service free)
3. If we can bring our own aspirin to the hospital that alone would save us and the hospital a bunch of money (I don't know who does the buying at the hospitals but man they suck and need to get fired)
4. This is the big one, yes they should charge for service no they should not make a profit on service. A profit on health care is just unthinkable to me. (by the way have you noticed all the new places being built for us folks getting on in age just so they can take everything we have worked for.)
5. Corporate control sucks and thats the way I see it.
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Re: Should the USA have Universal Healthcare??

PostBy: Freddy On: Sun Jan 11, 2009 4:18 am

Should the USA have Universal Healthcare??

I have no idea.

Before I say what I'm about to say, let me say that I have some Canadian friends. For the most of them their medical system works well. (Is that because the most of them are healthy?)

Someone near to me works at the closest major hospital to Eastern Canada. All surgeries come through her and her co-workers hands. Their job is to phone you some time before your surgery & ask all the questions, are you allergic, no food after midnight, etc. She is not allowed to tell me specifics, but general information flows when we talk. Every week, not just some weeks, every week, there are Canadians lined up for surgery here. They usually write a personal check. Some have their own private insurance, some are paid by the Canadian government. So, ask yourself, if things are so good there, why do the wealthy come here and write a check, how do insurance people even begin to sell private insurance up there, and why is the Canadian government paying us for anything medical?
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Re: Should the USA have Universal Healthcare??

PostBy: Paulie On: Sun Jan 11, 2009 5:20 am

As far as universal care......probably not. The gold standard in universal care is ......France. There system works, works
well, and is expensive.
Here in Ma, latest articles about health care are how one Ins co and a major health network basically price rigged health
care here. BCBS of MA made $900,000,000.00 in 2007. This is a non profit company I might add. My premiums went from 600/month in2001 to 1410./month in 2008 Health Ins here has more than doubled in 8 years.
Should Gov run health care? No, but they do have a role to play. Insurance provides O health care. Yet they slurp off
40-70 % of every health care dollar spent. That is unacceptable, and because of greed, no longer possible. The well is dry,
the Gov should REGULATE health care and payment systems, not run it.
I laugh when I hear that if gov runs it, taxes will go up. But because we get raped by an insurance company, its O.K.,
Something has to change and change soon. :!:
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Re: Should the USA have Universal Healthcare??

PostBy: Richard S. On: Sun Jan 11, 2009 5:52 am

Certainly jeromemsn the ridiculous sums paid out are part of the problem but it's not all of the problem. It's a very complicated issue.

jeromemsn wrote:1. We pay for what a drug cost (noticed how many drugs are just plain killing people and not helping)


So how do we quantify what it costs? The cost of drug to manufacture is usually very little however the costs in R&D and the hundreds that never make it to the consumer is quite extensive. Lastly as far as the pharmaceutical companies go I'm aware some of them make outrageous amounts of money but if you take away the incentive to make money the R&D on these drugs can possibly grind to a halt or be far less becaue investors will jump ship if there isn't any money in it.

As far as drugs killing people that's a complex questions too, I think fundamentally the system is flawed for approval of these drugs. The drug companies may push a drug through and try and hide the bad side effects however if the approval system for such drugs was not so strict they could be more open and honest about it. Now that may sound crazy but lets say for example we have a drug that can make the lives livable for 100,000 people but 100 of them will die from the drug. As long as the person taking the drug is aware of the risks don't you think that decision should be left up to them? I know there was many people pleading to keep that one arthritis medication on the market that was killing people. I don't think the government should be deciding they can't have it as long as they are aware of the risks and the company producing the drug is very forthcoming about it.
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Re: Should the USA have Universal Healthcare??

PostBy: TimV On: Sun Jan 11, 2009 8:19 am

Many large corporations in the USA want some sort of "U H C " :clap:
They say it wil take the burden off them for providing it to workers and I guess nobody could argue against that. :shock:
But the problem is insurance is controled by insurance companies and Congress is controled by Insurance lobbies amoung others.
We all know congress is so "overworked" they dont have time to read such things as bills before them . :(
This results in the nice Insurance companies to writing the bills for Congress and we will get another great plan like the "Prescription Drug Plan" for the elderly of a few years ago.
Whats the worry all about?? :eek2:
Jeeze You would think Congress was a bunch of Idiots :annoyed:
Not to worry!!! They are adding 20 more digits to the National Debt Clock.
You will be able to count all them zeros real soon again! :down:
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Re: Should the USA have Universal Healthcare??

PostBy: Devil505 On: Sun Jan 11, 2009 8:50 am

It's really a very simple problem: Does it make sense to continue a system where the incentive is that the less health care private industry provides, the more money it will make? Of course not....... & yet that is exactly what our system is based on now.
Some human problems cannot be solved at a profit & that's where we all band together, share the expense & solve the problem collectively. We don't expect the US Army or Navy to turn a profit, or put out fires for profit do we?
Health care should be handled the same way.....as a necessary societal expense to be paid COLLECTIVELY.
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Re: Should the USA have Universal Healthcare??

PostBy: Black_And_Blue On: Sun Jan 11, 2009 10:18 am

The Collective, I see.

"You Americans are so gullible. No, you won’t accept communism outright, but we’ll keep feeding you small doses of socialism until you’ll finally wake up and find you already have communism. We won’t have to fight you. We’ll so weaken your economy until you’ll fall like overripe fruit into our hands."

- Nikkita Khrushchev
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