Should the USA have Universal Healthcare??

Re: Should the USA have Universal Healthcare??

PostBy: jpete On: Mon Mar 02, 2009 11:42 am

Devil505 wrote:
JohnMck wrote:I don't care if someone else has health care!!! It's not my problem, and I shouldn't have to pay for it!!!!!


I don't care if Russia invades & occupies Pennsylvania!....I live in Massachusetts....It's not my problem, and I shouldn't have to pay for it!!!!!

(Don't we live in the "Dis-United & I could Give A Crap About Anyone But Me States of America"??


I care about you Devil. I just don't want to PAY for you! ;) :D

Let me keep more of the money I make and I will give generously to the charity of my choice.

In the "land of the free" we are FORCED at the point of a gun to contribute to people we otherwise would not. And some of you want to expand that. It's bad enough now, why go all the way?
jpete
 
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Re: Should the USA have Universal Healthcare??

PostBy: Devil505 On: Mon Mar 02, 2009 12:09 pm

jpete wrote:In the "land of the free" we are FORCED at the point of a gun to contribute to people we otherwise would not. And some of you want to expand that. It's bad enough now, why go all the way?




Because we live in the UNITED States of America & our Constitution has a preamble that espouses:

"We the People of the United States, in Order to form a more perfect Union, establish Justice, insure domestic Tranquility, provide for the common defence, promote the general Welfare, and secure the Blessings of Liberty to ourselves and our Posterity, do ordain and establish this Constitution for the United States of America."

I missed the part that says we are a bunch of greedy loners. (where was that part again???)
Devil505
 
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Re: Should the USA have Universal Healthcare??

PostBy: jpete On: Mon Mar 02, 2009 12:43 pm

Devil505 wrote:
jpete wrote:In the "land of the free" we are FORCED at the point of a gun to contribute to people we otherwise would not. And some of you want to expand that. It's bad enough now, why go all the way?




Because we live in the UNITED States of America & our Constitution has a preamble that espouses:

"We the People of the United States, in Order to form a more perfect Union, establish Justice, insure domestic Tranquility, provide for the common defence, promote the general Welfare, and secure the Blessings of Liberty to ourselves and our Posterity, do ordain and establish this Constitution for the United States of America."

I missed the part that says we are a bunch of greedy loners. (where was that part again???)


It says "promote" not "ensure", "guarantee", or "provide" the General Welfare.

And YOUR version of "General Welfare" takes away my "Blessings of Liberty" by putting a gun to my head and forcing me to pay for your welfare.
jpete
 
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Re: Should the USA have Universal Healthcare??

PostBy: tvb On: Mon Mar 02, 2009 12:48 pm

jpete wrote:
tvb wrote:Jeff, are you that unfamiliar with the current state of private insurance in the US that you don't think care is already rationed?

A woman cannot choose a cesarean expect it to be paid for unless it's deemed medically necessary by a clerk in a faraway office. The insurance companies routinely deny drugs prescribed by a treating physician; it happens all the time and often at great expense to the insurance holder! Health care is rationed already in the US.


-snip- :x
I've never had a procedure refused. My wife had a C-section. My dad at 73 just had two cataract operations. They replaced the lenses in his eyes. He also had brain surgery, neck and lower back surgery, and a double bypass. No questions asked. How would that would have gone in England?

Think they would have done the actuarial tables on all that? And what do you think the answer would be?
-snip-


Just like the vast majority of folks in Canada, the UK, Denmark ... oh, wait, that would be everywhere but the US, and they didn't have to shell out $15K to enrich the pockets of a health insurance executive.
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Re: Should the USA have Universal Healthcare??

PostBy: jpete On: Mon Mar 02, 2009 1:03 pm

tvb wrote:
jpete wrote:
tvb wrote:Jeff, are you that unfamiliar with the current state of private insurance in the US that you don't think care is already rationed?

A woman cannot choose a cesarean expect it to be paid for unless it's deemed medically necessary by a clerk in a faraway office. The insurance companies routinely deny drugs prescribed by a treating physician; it happens all the time and often at great expense to the insurance holder! Health care is rationed already in the US.


-snip- :x
I've never had a procedure refused. My wife had a C-section. My dad at 73 just had two cataract operations. They replaced the lenses in his eyes. He also had brain surgery, neck and lower back surgery, and a double bypass. No questions asked. How would that would have gone in England?

Think they would have done the actuarial tables on all that? And what do you think the answer would be?
-snip-


Just like the vast majority of folks in Canada, the UK, Denmark ... oh, wait, that would be everywhere but the US, and they didn't have to shell out $15K to enrich the pockets of a health insurance executive.


Oh, so those insurers that will run the health care system under your plan won't get rich? You don't think that will be factored in?

And my $15k covers five people. That's less than what Canada spends per person.
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Re: Should the USA have Universal Healthcare??

PostBy: stockingfull On: Mon Mar 02, 2009 1:58 pm

Jeff, the "charity of your choice," "thousand points of light" or whatever other phony ruse you guys try to hide behind when you want to duck your responsibilities ain't gonna cut it anymore.

"Stealing from you." What a laugh. The gov't has the right to do this -- and the greed of the insurance industry over the past 20 yrs may just take them out of the final plan. Because, like so many other opportunities which pvt enterprise has, they took something which had the potential to be a valuable public service tool and abused it. No different from the investment banks, Bernie Madoff, Stanford and the rest. You see, in public works, the shareholder is NOT more important than the taxpayer. For every tall tale of of foreign gov't controlled healthcare you can find, there are a dozen Americans who've been screwed by the insurance companies. So, just like in Wall St, the gov't has to intervene to restore order -- and you can be assured it will.

But the part you really don't get as you push all those tired old scare buttons is that, after we take the obscene profits going to Hartford (and the rest of the insurance industry you foolishly think is serving you) out of the equation, it all won't be nearly as expensive as the wing-nuts would have you believe.

In fact, so far the insurance industry seems resigned to it happening. They're not fighting it like they did in 1993-4, they're just maneuvering for a place at the table. So you may get your wish: in the end, there may be a gov't pool competing with the pvt ins co's for the guaranteed, no cherry-picking, no "pre-existing condition"-exclusion coverage which everybody will have when this gets done.

And then we'll see who's more efficient.
stockingfull
 
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Re: Should the USA have Universal Healthcare??

PostBy: jpete On: Mon Mar 02, 2009 2:22 pm

stockingfull wrote: Jeff, the "charity of your choice," "thousand points of light" or whatever other phony ruse you guys try to hide behind when you want to duck your responsibilities ain't gonna cut it anymore.


So you are telling me I DIDN'T donate to Hasbro Children's Hospital and the Tomorrow Fund for cancer? Interesting you know so much about me.

stockingfull wrote: "Stealing from you." What a laugh. The gov't has the right to do this -- and the greed of the insurance industry over the past 20 yrs may just take them out of the final plan. Because, like so many other opportunities which pvt enterprise has, they took something which had the potential to be a valuable public service tool and abused it. No different from the investment banks, Bernie Madoff, Stanford and the rest. You see, in public works, the shareholder is NOT more important than the taxpayer. For every tall tale of of foreign gov't controlled healthcare you can find, there are a dozen Americans who've been screwed by the insurance companies. So, just like in Wall St, the gov't has to intervene to restore order -- and you can be assured it will.

But the part you really don't get as you push all those tired old scare buttons is that, after we take the obscene profits going to Hartford (and the rest of the insurance industry you foolishly think is serving you) out of the equation, it all won't be nearly as expensive as the wing-nuts would have you believe.

In fact, so far the insurance industry seems resigned to it happening. They're not fighting it like they did in 1993-4, they're just maneuvering for a place at the table. So you may get your wish: in the end, there may be a gov't pool competing with the pvt ins co's for the guaranteed, no cherry-picking, no "pre-existing condition"-exclusion coverage which everybody will have when this gets done.

And then we'll see who's more efficient.


NOTHING is more efficient when run by the government. Tell me smart guy. Tell me one thing the government has ever delivered cheaper than private industry.

In public works, the taxpayer isn't important AT ALL. Why would they be? It's not like they have a choice on where the money goes.

You may enjoy being a slave, but I don't.
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Re: Should the USA have Universal Healthcare??

PostBy: stockingfull On: Mon Mar 02, 2009 2:50 pm

I told you above about what the gov't does cheaper than you can. Either you haven't read it, or you don't remember it, or you didn't understand it, none of which excuses is acceptable.

"Slave"? More brain-dead no-tax talk. I think it's nice that you've contributed to a hospital. But voluntary charity can't carry the load and, when that happens, the gov't comes in. That's the way it's always been. Like I said above, those of you who think you're "slaves" to the gov't are, many more times than not, operating at a net profit, but you never see it that way because it doesn't support your "me-first" thinking.

Universal healthcare isn't some "surprise attack" or other double-cross. The Clintons tried it in 1993-4, Kerry ran on it last time, and Obama won on it this time.

Your side lost. Sorry, but it's happening.
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Re: Should the USA have Universal Healthcare??

PostBy: jpete On: Mon Mar 02, 2009 3:16 pm

stockingfull wrote:I told you above about what the gov't does cheaper than you can. Either you haven't read it, or you don't remember it, or you didn't understand it, none of which excuses is acceptable.

"Slave"? More brain-dead no-tax talk. I think it's nice that you've contributed to a hospital. But voluntary charity can't carry the load and, when that happens, the gov't comes in. That's the way it's always been. Like I said above, those of you who think you're "slaves" to the gov't are, many more times than not, operating at a net profit, but you never see it that way because it doesn't support your "me-first" thinking.

Universal healthcare isn't some "surprise attack" or other double-cross. The Clintons tried it in 1993-4, Kerry ran on it last time, and Obama won on it this time.

Your side lost. Sorry, but it's happening.


Public works is your answer to what government does cheaper?!?!?!!?!?!?

So cheaply that nearly every state is running a deficit. Sorry, didn't know you were serious about that one. The government provided Utopia you live in must be way more efficient than RI. We paid $100k for a cd player, 12 speakers and a recording of bird sounds at a courthouse.

http://www.projo.com/ri/middletown/cont ... 4e39f.html

And I didn't say it was a surprise attack. We all knew the moochers and looters wouldn't give up. At least the Clinton's had a public debate about it. Not slipped it into a spending bill meant to "stimulate the economy".

And if by "my side", you mean the taxpayer, then I'd say that's one thing we agree on. We lost.
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Re: Should the USA have Universal Healthcare??

PostBy: stockingfull On: Mon Mar 02, 2009 4:55 pm

Two can play your semantics game:

My side is the people. We won.
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Re: Should the USA have Universal Healthcare??

PostBy: jpete On: Mon Mar 02, 2009 5:02 pm

stockingfull wrote:Two can play your semantics game:

My side is the people. We won.


If by "we" you mean people who expect something for nothing, then yes, you are right again.

But those of us who prefer to work and contribute our fair share have lost. Once you get your way, I for one will lay down my tools and stop producing and start consuming like the rest of the leeches. Then we'll see who has the better idea.
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Re: Should the USA have Universal Healthcare??

PostBy: stockingfull On: Mon Mar 02, 2009 5:20 pm

You won't make that choice for long. The don't call people "disadvantaged" for nothing.

Working people will always do better than those on the dole. That's as it should be -- and it won't be any different just because people don't have to worry about changing jobs because of their medical benefits.
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Re: Should the USA have Universal Healthcare??

PostBy: jpete On: Mon Mar 02, 2009 11:08 pm

stockingfull wrote:You won't make that choice for long. The don't call people "disadvantaged" for nothing.

Working people will always do better than those on the dole. That's as it should be -- and it won't be any different just because people don't have to worry about changing jobs because of their medical benefits.


I don't worry about changing jobs and losing my medical benefits. I did what I should and educated myself so I would have the option of changing jobs and having medical benefits. One more thing you'll take away by allowing people to use the government as a crutch for their own bad decisions.

Dependency=Slavery.
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Re: Should the USA have Universal Healthcare??

PostBy: stockingfull On: Mon Mar 02, 2009 11:23 pm

jpete wrote:Dependency=Slavery.

On this, I agree: there are a great many people now who are almost literally indentured, whether to their employers or their spouses, because of employer-based health insurance.

And they soon will be emancipated from that slavery.
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Re: Should the USA have Universal Healthcare??

PostBy: brckwlt On: Mon Mar 02, 2009 11:36 pm

If you live in america and want universal health care do us all a favor and move to europe with the rest of your kind. Or do what your supposed to do work hard and get a job that offers health care. People are so freaking lazy anymore and expect the govt to do everything for them. I want the govt to stay out of my life and leave me the f*ck alone.
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