Should the USA have Universal Healthcare??

I say no welfare for companies or individuals. How do you justify your position Devil? I welfare for companies is bad why is it good for individuals?

jpete wrote:I say no welfare for companies or individuals. How do you justify your position Devil? I welfare for companies is bad why is it good for individuals?

Off topic....but......people have innocent kids who can starve, get sick & freeze to death...Corporations don't!
(letting an innocent child starve is immoral & Un-Christian........Handing AIG & Exxon-Mobil billions in tax money is also immoral but seems to be what both sides of the aisle have found necessary so I'll hold my nose & support my President)

Devil505 wrote:

titleist1 wrote:I have seen, self employed and not part of a group health plan and still I am paying 5 times in taxes what I pay for healthcare.

Don't forget a good portion of what you pay for federal taxes goes to pay (indirectly & not so obviously) for the tremendously high health care costs in this country too....in addition to what you pay directly. (how much lower would Medicaid/Medicare taxes be if health care was reasonable?) Plus, how much of your tax burden goes to pay for corporate welfare like insurance company CEO bonuses & other BS (like AIG even b4 the disgusting bailout) & tax benefits STILL BEING PAID to Exxon-Mobil & the other hugely profitable oil company's. That money comes right out of OUR taxes!

You are losing me.....So you are now agreeing with me and saying that it is taxes that are the bigger burden rather than health care? The Gov't negotiates the Medicare and Medicaid rates they pay the providers for services. Usually it is lower than the amount that would be billed if the patient had to pay directly. The overhead cost of administrating the system pushes the "cost" and out tax burden way past reasonable. So it is not the "cost of health care" per se, it is the cost of running this government program that drives up the tax. I don't have enough faith in government to fix their megolithic mindset and get the administrative costs of such a system under control. They have no incentive to control that cost, it would mean less government jobs.

the second question....Too much of my tax burden goes to pay for corporate welfare, thank you very little GWB AND BHO. Just supports my assertion that my tax burden is worse than my health care cost burden.

Devil505 wrote:

jpete wrote:I say no welfare for companies or individuals. How do you justify your position Devil? I welfare for companies is bad why is it good for individuals?

Off topic....but......people have innocent kids who can starve, get sick & freeze to death...Corporations don't!
(letting an innocent child starve is immoral & Un-Christian........Handing AIG & Exxon-Mobil billions is also immoral)

There are programs for the children of poor people (who probably shouldn’t be procreating anyway) that will offer healthcare services. These programs are often exploited by people who could probably afford health insurance.

Devil505 wrote:

titleist1 wrote:I have seen, self employed and not part of a group health plan and still I am paying 5 times in taxes what I pay for healthcare.

Don't forget a good portion of what you pay for federal taxes goes to pay (indirectly & not so obviously) for the tremendously high health care costs in this country too....in addition to what you pay directly. (how much lower would Medicaid/Medicare taxes be if health care was reasonable?) Plus, how much of your tax burden goes to pay for corporate welfare like insurance company CEO bonuses & other BS (like AIG even b4 the disgusting bailout) & tax benefits STILL BEING PAID to Exxon-Mobil & the other hugely profitable oil company's. That money comes right out of OUR taxes!

I just don’t get though why you think that with universal healthcare our taxes would go down. I see what you post on these boards and while we differ on opinions from time to time you seem to be an educated man. When then would you make such foolish statements? The government lowering taxes on Medicaid and Medicare? Please. Healthcare costs going down? Please. Doctors would quite in droves as they would be constantly helping people that weren’t sick at all. Regulation and government intervention would probably drive costs up further.

Believe me when I say this. I worked in medical billing in my early years and it is amazing our taxes are as high as they are now when you see what Medicaid and Medicare pay for services verse what private insurance companies do.

titleist1 wrote:You are losing me.....So you are now agreeing with me and saying that it is taxes that are the bigger burden rather than health care?

I'm saying that trying to separate the two (taxes & health care.... as if they aren't related) is just a shell game. ......If we took better care of ourselves our health problems would be less, life expectancy longer & therefore our tax burden would be less. I think that is one of Obama's basic points: "An ounce of prevention is worth a pound of cure."....It all comes down to lack of universally available & affordable health care being one of the root causes of our problems. (that an energy) To keep pretending that you can cut taxes & still take care of a sick population is just BS!

billlindley wrote:There are programs for the children of poor people (who probably shouldn’t be procreating anyway) that will offer healthcare services. These programs are often exploited by people who could probably afford health insurance.

I was responding to jpete when he said:

jpete wrote:I say no welfare for companies or individuals. How do you justify your position Devil? I welfare for companies is bad why is it good for individuals?

(my emphasis)

Maybe I'm not stating my point very well, but what I'm saying is those who think we aren't already paying a heavy penalty for health care in this country (whether directly or indirectly through our taxes) are wrong & that a system of universally available & affordable health care would END UP costing us all less, out of pocket.

Just exactly like LBJ said we would wipe out the poor with his Great Society acts and a few billion dollares. How much has that cost us and how many poor do we have now?

Kevin

Dev, What are you smoking??

Quote:
Maybe I'm not getting my point across very well, but what I'm saying is those who think we aren't already paying a heavy penalty for health care in this country (whether directly or indirectly through our taxes) ar wrong & that a system of universally available & affordable health care would end up costing us all less.
Unquote.

There is no way that the costs will go down. Please tell us how the costs would go down??? Any form of 2+2=4 would be fine,, not the 2+2=3 that the politicians use..

First, the actual cost in Canada is a monthly fee of around $150, about the same I pay for my health care,, but in Canada you wait in lines, get rationed care, and when the ration is up, it's done. I can get an appointment at my doctors office when I need it, as often as I need it. NO rationing.

Greg L

But you are a greedy capitalist Greg and you dont share your good fortune with everyone else. You must be brought down a peg or two. Who do you think you are anyway?

Kevin

LsFarm wrote:Dev, What are you smoking??

Just my retirement "bonus" smoking material!

I'll say it again: I believe the thinking in the Obama administration is that "An ounce of prevention is worth more than a pound of cure.".......& will be less expensive in the final analysis!

(Been a long, aggravating day so far...trying to get my car inspected....... but let me take another stab at The Big Picture:

1. Right now, this country does not have a health care system....We have a sickness/disease care system. ( we wait until we are sick, rather than spending less money to PREVENT sickness)
2. If we had an intelligent, universally available & affordable HEALTH CARE (not disease care) system in place, our overall health related costs would go down in this country.

This is obviously an OPINION, but we have already proved the Sickness Care System doesn't work, so let's try HEALTH CARE for a CHANGE!

It works for Greg and I for starters. You just want change for the sake of it. Leave us out of it and tax the ones that want to be a part of it. Don't tell me it has to be done because we don't know what is good for us. I just used my health insurance and it worked fine.

Kevin

How do you prevent cancer,leukemia,heart disease,cystic fibrosis,muscular dystrophy and SIDS and many more. Most obese people tend to be that way because of self control issues and that is a choice. Most of our health issues are caused by shear laziness to not exercise. So if most people chose this route how is free health care going to help? Most of our health care issues are caused by people taking advantage of the health care system-aliens,mentally ill, hypochondriacs that are not really in need of emergency care. What is needed is a branch off the emergency ward to handle such needs. But you'll never make healthy people out of lazy people. Everybody knows inactivity causes health problems and I've rarely seen a skinny person on welfare.
So tell me how you can force a person to be healthy by giving them free health care I think it will have the opposite affect. Now that they know it's free they'll be even more dependent on welfare/entitlement than ever. And the other effect will be WHY EVEN GET A JOB EVERYTHING'S FREE what responsibility do I have anymore. I'm from the old school I have what I have because I earned it but I will help out my neighbor until he tell me he's entitled to my help. Chip already exists for all children who need it and it's very accessible. There are poor people that need help but they are dwarfed by those who don't need help let's fix that first then make sure those in need are taken care of. We don't need to burden an already failing system we just need to fix what we have and go from there.


Bill S.

KLook wrote:It works for Greg and I for starters. You just want change for the sake of it. Leave us out of it and tax the ones that want to be a part of it.

Sebelius says seeks healthcare for all Americans
Reuters



By Donna Smith Donna Smith – 1 hr 6 mins ago

WASHINGTON (Reuters) – President Barack Obama's nominee to oversee U.S. healthcare said on Thursday every American should have health insurance but did not back industry demands that everyone be required to obtain coverage.
http://news.yahoo.com/s/nm/20090402/pl_ ... congress_4

You got your wish! (Availability is what is being proposed.....If you & Greg like what you have.....KEEP IT! (only the price will be lower under the new plan)

BillMarti wrote:How do you prevent cancer,leukemia,heart disease,cystic fibrosis,muscular dystrophy and SIDS and many more.

1. Stem cell research
2. More fed funding of Cancer research & less to Haliburton, Iraq, KBR, Blackwater, etc..etc....etc
3. More money for basic science & medical research

BillMarti wrote:Most obese people tend to be that way because of self control issues and that is a choice.

Have links to prove that? (I think lack of education & lack of income have more to do with it)

BillMarti wrote:Most of our health issues are caused by shear laziness to not exercise. So if most people chose this route how is free health care going to help? Most of our health care issues are caused by people taking advantage of the health care system-aliens,mentally ill, hypochondriacs that are not really in need of emergency care. What is needed is a branch off the emergency ward to handle such needs. But you'll never make healthy people out of lazy people. Everybody knows inactivity causes health problems and I've rarely seen a skinny person on welfare.
So tell me how you can force a person to be healthy by giving them free health care I think it will have the opposite affect. Now that they know it's free they'll be even more dependent on welfare/entitlement than ever. And the other effect will be WHY EVEN GET A JOB EVERYTHING'S FREE what responsibility do I have anymore. I'm from the old school I have what I have because I earned it but I will help out my neighbor until he tell me he's entitled to my help. Chip already exists for all children who need it and it's very accessible. There are poor people that need help but they are dwarfed by those who don't need help let's fix that first then make sure those in need are taken care of. We don't need to burden an already failing system we just need to fix what we have and go from there.

Many other countries in this world have healthier life styles & therefore better health than we do in this country. Your above rant is just not born out by the facts.
(as an example:...I'm 62 years old & here's a pic of me at the gym from just 2 days ago!)

Devil505 wrote:Maybe I'm not stating my point very well, but what I'm saying is those who think we aren't already paying a heavy penalty for health care in this country (whether directly or indirectly through our taxes) are wrong & that a system of universally available & affordable health care would END UP costing us all less, out of pocket.

No, you made your point perfectly fine. I'm saying no more welfare for those at the top or the bottom.

What's moral or "Christian" about stealing the fruit of my labor and forcing me at the point of a gun to pay for something that encourages sloth(isn't that a deadly sin?)

And what about the government leads you to believe that they will drive the cost down? When has that ever happened in the history of the world?

Was the doctor in New York offering unlimited visits for $79/month driving cost down or up? Who put a stop to it? Oh that's right. Government.

And what happens to me if I don't want to practice your and BHO's "once of prevention"? Are you going to imprison me? You can't charge me more. Maybe fine me like Massachusetts?

How is MassCare working out Devil anyway? Deval get that budget deficit worked out yet? How do you like looking down the barrel of the highest gas taxes in the country? Make you feel all warm and fuzzy that people who never worked a day in their lives will have health care out of your pocket? Want me to post your feelings about people you THINK don't have a job, as you let me know in no uncertain terms?

Altruism is nice in theory but I'm not buying it from you.