Should the USA have Universal Healthcare??

Re: Should the USA have Universal Healthcare??

PostBy: SuperBeetle On: Sun Jan 11, 2009 5:25 pm

hugg wrote:There are many mistakes. My wife is a registered nurse that works in labor and delivery. The doctors are only human and do make mistakes.

I agree with you regarding this but at no time should a mistake be "brushed under the rug". We all make mistakes. They should not be ignored or covered up. They should be used to find ways so they are not repeated in the future. If there is negligence then licenses need to be revoked.
SuperBeetle
 
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Re: Should the USA have Universal Healthcare??

PostBy: Complete Heat On: Sun Jan 11, 2009 5:26 pm

We have free health care right now. If you are sick... go to an emergency room, and they will treat you with or with out money.

Mike
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Re: Should the USA have Universal Healthcare??

PostBy: jpete On: Sun Jan 11, 2009 5:30 pm

stockingfull wrote:But no-o-o-o-o, when the "free market" works to the disadvantage of the insurance companies, then we need the government to help with "tort reform." It's deceptive marketing crap, plain and simple. :box:


Frankly, insurance in general is a scam anyway. If the mob does it, it's called "protection money" and they get prosecuted. If a government sanctioned group does it, it's called GEICO.

The whole court system is so out of whack, we'll never get it back so there's no sense bothering there.

The government's job it to "promote the general welfare". That doesn't mean playing Robin Hood. Socialism doesn't work. Why would I bother to do anything if the government is going to steal from you to give to me? Or worse, steal from ME to give to YOU! :)
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Re: Should the USA have Universal Healthcare??

PostBy: Freddy On: Sun Jan 11, 2009 5:32 pm

SuperBeetle wrote: In what state can you become a licensed registered nurse (RN) in 2 years?

I think all states


Not any state that I know of, but maybe. My wife is an RN. Here in Maine you can become an LPN in two years, but an RN is most assuredly a four year program. The two year RN's went out in the 80's.

My wife works part time at a local hospital. Full timers get health insurance, but part timers "get a discount". As of Jan of this year we are paying $10,868 a year for health insurance for the two of us. If not for that one thing, she could retire.
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Re: Should the USA have Universal Healthcare??

PostBy: stockingfull On: Sun Jan 11, 2009 5:33 pm

billw wrote:No problem stockingfull. I went back to school and got my accounting degree. Now I sit everyday and count other people's money. The job sucks but I pay my way again and I've got insurance one more time. My son will get through his unemployment. He's not alone. I think 3 million in 2008 and if the economists are right it will be a lot more in 2009-2010.
My whole point was universal health care sucks when you've got a good job and decent benefits but it can be gone in a flash and then you're screwed.


Good for you, bill.

But, if we're as good as we say we are -- and as "Christian" -- the answer would be obvious and this discussion wouldn't be necessary.

Simple as that.
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Re: Should the USA have Universal Healthcare??

PostBy: Yanche On: Sun Jan 11, 2009 5:39 pm

SuperBeetle wrote:
In what state can you become a licensed registered nurse (RN) in 2 years?
I think all states
In some states you can become a licensed practical nurse (LPN) in about 2 years but that's usually at a full time, 12 months per year residency program at a teaching hospital related facility.


That can be done in 1 year.
Programs like that are very limited and have been replaced with a junior or community college associated degree program plus in service apprentice training. These programs take more than 2 years, start to RN license in hand
.

Actually there are quite a few of these programs. Trust me it can be done in 2 years.

Just because a person wears a nurses type uniform in a hospital doesn't make them a nurse.


I am aware of that. I worked in healthcare for over 20 years.
SuperBeetle wrote:
In what state can you become a licensed registered nurse (RN) in 2 years?
I think all states
In some states you can become a licensed practical nurse (LPN) in about 2 years but that's usually at a full time, 12 months per year residency program at a teaching hospital related facility.


That can be done in 1 year.
Programs like that are very limited and have been replaced with a junior or community college associated degree program plus in service apprentice training. These programs take more than 2 years, start to RN license in hand
.

Actually there are quite a few of these programs. Trust me it can be done in 2 years.

Just because a person wears a nurses type uniform in a hospital doesn't make them a nurse.


I am aware of that. I worked in healthcare for over 20 years.
Well, I've got several relatives and friends that are MD licensed RNs. None got there license start to finish in two years or less, i.e. high school to RN license in hand. It's a lot longer than you think. From the PA Futures in Nursing Web site:


http://www.futuresinnursing.org/education/index.shtml
This link is broken, either the page no longer exists or there is some other issue like a typo.


Begin Quote:

Registered Nurse (RN)

Registered nurses have four different paths to choose from:

Associate Degree in Nursing (ADN)

* Offered by junior and community colleges and some universities
* Completed within 2-3 years
* College credits earned in an associate degree program are generally accepted at many colleges and universities that provide a Bachelor’s Degree in Nursing. In some cases all credits received at this level will be transferable depending on arrangements made between two-year and four-year schools.

Diploma in Nursing (DN)

* Courses of study are completed at a hospital-based program
* Completed within 2-3 years
* Generally require completion of college level science and art courses either as a requirement for entry into the program or taken with the nursing courses

Bachelor of Science in Nursing (BSN)

* Offered by four-year colleges and universities
* Four-year program
* Often entered by nurses with ADN or diplomas to prepare for a broader scope of nursing
* Necessary for administrative positions
* Required for admission to graduate nursing programs in research, clinical practice, education or administration
* Nurses with ADN or diplomas can often find positions within a health care organization which offer student aid for a BSN

Accelerated Nursing Programs (BSN & MSN)

* These programs build on previous learning experience and transition individuals with undergraduate degrees in other disciplines into nursing.
* Twelve-eighteen month program
* Designed for degree-holding, career-changers
* Offered at 12 Pennsylvania colleges and universities

Graduates of these four programs are eligible to take the registered nurse licensure examination; passing this exam allows them to practice as a registered nurse and allows them to use the title of Registered Nurse(RN).

End Quote
Yanche
 
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Re: Should the USA have Universal Healthcare??

PostBy: kootch88 On: Sun Jan 11, 2009 5:42 pm

If insurance is such a scam, don't participate. post a bond for your auto coverage, pay your health care as you go and go on with your life. Why is it such a scam for an insurance company to make money? Isn't that the idea of capitalism?


The reason why you wouldn't do what I am suggesting is because you probably aren't willing to take that risk. I don't blame you, but don't be pissed at the insurance company for assuming that risk for you at their price. Take it or leave it, the American way.
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Re: Should the USA have Universal Healthcare??

PostBy: BillMarti On: Sun Jan 11, 2009 5:46 pm

A few years ago a law was put before the senate on frivolous lawsuits. What it entailed was that if you brought a lawsuit against that had no basis or real standing then the person(s) who filed it would pay all costs. I think our legal system and it's
ambulance chasing lawyers should have a long hard look into their practice but then who would do that. We need to put term limits on all our government houses the senate,congress and especially the supreme court that way they can't repeat the farce of a government we have now. I think this would solve most of our medical problems. And nobody is ever turned away from the emergency room so don't say some don't have access to health care. Some abuse this and should be turned away but again our mostly dishonest lawyers prevent that which adds to higher medical care. So tell me who doesn't get free medical care again ?
Oh yeah the socialists won't divulge that one but 'I'm sure it will stir up a hornets nest.

Bill S.
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Re: Should the USA have Universal Healthcare??

PostBy: billw On: Sun Jan 11, 2009 5:49 pm

Yanche,
Here's a link to the community college I'm talking about. The course curriculum specifies RN after completing the two year course and passing the tests. The sister I was talking about in my earlier post got married and moved to Belair, MD and has been an RN there for years with just this program. She subsequently got her BS and is working on her MS down there.

http://www.luzerne.edu/
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Re: Should the USA have Universal Healthcare??

PostBy: SuperBeetle On: Sun Jan 11, 2009 6:25 pm

http://www.allnursingschools.com/nursin ... ng/degrees

There are three different entry-level paths into nursing, each offered by a different type of school:

The 4-year BSN is preferred by most nursing leaders and provides the best opportunities in today's job market. If you look in the classifieds, you'll find that a BSN is a requirement for many positions.

The 2-year Associate Degree focuses more on technical skills than theory and is often a stepping stone to the BSN. It allows a student to become a Registered Nurse and earn money more quickly than a 4-year BSN program, so it works better for many students. It is the entry point for technical nursing practice.

The diploma, a 2-3 year experience was more common before the 1970s, when there were more than 800 diploma schools in existence. There are now less than 100 such schools. A diploma experience prepares students for work in a hospital or other inpatient facility.
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Re: Should the USA have Universal Healthcare??

PostBy: stockingfull On: Sun Jan 11, 2009 6:27 pm

BillMarti wrote:A few years ago a law was put before the senate on frivolous lawsuits. What it entailed was that if you brought a lawsuit against that had no basis or real standing then the person(s) who filed it would pay all costs. I think our legal system and it's ambulance chasing lawyers should have a long hard look into their practice but then who would do that. We need to put term limits on all our government houses the senate,congress and especially the supreme court that way they can't repeat the farce of a government we have now. I think this would solve most of our medical problems. And nobody is ever turned away from the emergency room so don't say some don't have access to health care. Some abuse this and should be turned away but again our mostly dishonest lawyers prevent that which adds to higher medical care. So tell me who doesn't get free medical care again ?
Oh yeah the socialists won't divulge that one but 'I'm sure it will stir up a hornets nest.

Bill S.


Reversing the legal costs is called the "British system," as opposed to the "American system," where everybody comes to court paying their own counsel, regardless of outcome.

That was a choice made advisedly, because the possibility of bankrupting the plaintiff would have a "chilling effect" on perfectly valid lawsuits, as it does in the old country.

The way our personal injury system works is through "contingent" fees, where the lawyer simply doesn't get earn a fee unless the case is successful. That way the plaintiff doesn't have to be a clairvoyant; his/her counsel has a vested interest in the validity of the claim.

The downside actually inures to the benefit of careless defendants. If the victim of the malpractice is too young, or too old, for their death to have had a substantial economic impact on others, their negligent killing is without penalty. :down:
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Re: Should the USA have Universal Healthcare??

PostBy: jpete On: Sun Jan 11, 2009 6:56 pm

kootch88 wrote:If insurance is such a scam, don't participate. post a bond for your auto coverage, pay your health care as you go and go on with your life. Why is it such a scam for an insurance company to make money? Isn't that the idea of capitalism?


The reason why you wouldn't do what I am suggesting is because you probably aren't willing to take that risk. I don't blame you, but don't be *censored* at the insurance company for assuming that risk for you at their price. Take it or leave it, the American way.


Well, the state made car insurance mandatory so there goes your "take it or leave it" theory. When the government makes it mandatory, capitalism goes out the window too.

And I have been looking into HSA's. Open enrollment will be coming up next year I think so I may just do that.

And I'm not just talking about car and health insurance. What about all the financial insurance that failed in the last few months? All those sub prime loans were paying PMI. Where'd that go?

And don't get me started on credit default swaps.
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Re: Should the USA have Universal Healthcare??

PostBy: kootch88 On: Sun Jan 11, 2009 7:15 pm

You are wrong, almost all states allow for self insuring. When you go to the registry, they look for proof of financial responsibility actually, not proof of insurance. There are actually many companies that do self insure. Same thing with the police when you get in an accident. It is called proof of financial responsibility, so if you do not want to pay for insurance, you actually can self insure if you do not want to pay for insurance. So go ahead, do it. Risk your house, retirement fund and anything else you have to save the 5 or 6 hundred bucks a year it costs t insure a vehicle in Maine. Same on your house. You can post a bond or other financial instrument and self insure. Just quit complaining when you will not place the risk at your own doorstep. Take it or leave it.

PMI is different, and if you do not like those terms, save your money and buy a house when you have enough dough to do it, or go to an alternative source. Another words, take it or leave it. So many people blab about capitalism , but it is only a great thing when it is convenient for them and requires no risk to them. When it is someone else taking the risk or investing their money, everyone is up in arms. See how angry people are with Exxopn for making record profits and mad that they have 45 billion in cash and another 250 billion in convertible instruments? That is called capitalism and they are making the best of it, Same as Aetna or BCBS.

The fact is there are alternatives. You may not like them, but if you did some research they are there. Nothing is for free. As an insurer, why should I insure you when I know you are a high risk individual? I am doing this for money, not for charity. I have had people try to by insurance on their cars with broken windshields after it is already broken so they can place a claim. Same thing with adding collision after there is already damage. WTF!! Same thing with health. Why buy it unless you are sick, when you really need it right? Do you see the reason why pre-existing conditions are excluded?
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Re: Should the USA have Universal Healthcare??

PostBy: jpete On: Sun Jan 11, 2009 7:43 pm

kootch88 wrote:You are wrong, almost all states allow for self insuring. When you go to the registry, they look for proof of financial responsibility actually, not proof of insurance. There are actually many companies that do self insure. Same thing with the police when you get in an accident. It is called proof of financial responsibility, so if you do not want to pay for insurance, you actually can self insure if you do not want to pay for insurance. So go ahead, do it. Risk your house, retirement fund and anything else you have to save the 5 or 6 hundred bucks a year it costs t insure a vehicle in Maine. Same on your house. You can post a bond or other financial instrument and self insure. Just quit complaining when you will not place the risk at your own doorstep. Take it or leave it.

PMI is different, and if you do not like those terms, save your money and buy a house when you have enough dough to do it, or go to an alternative source. Another words, take it or leave it. So many people blab about capitalism , but it is only a great thing when it is convenient for them and requires no risk to them. When it is someone else taking the risk or investing their money, everyone is up in arms. See how angry people are with Exxopn for making record profits and mad that they have 45 billion in cash and another 250 billion in convertible instruments? That is called capitalism and they are making the best of it, Same as Aetna or BCBS.

The fact is there are alternatives. You may not like them, but if you did some research they are there. Nothing is for free. As an insurer, why should I insure you when I know you are a high risk individual? I am doing this for money, not for charity. I have had people try to by insurance on their cars with broken windshields after it is already broken so they can place a claim. Same thing with adding collision after there is already damage. WTF!! Same thing with health. Why buy it unless you are sick, when you really need it right? Do you see the reason why pre-existing conditions are excluded?


Ah, I see. You are an insurer. So, I suppose you would never try to weasel out of a claim right? You must be the only honest insurer on the planet.

And don't get me started on BCBS. I'm sure in Maine, it's run by Gregorian monks but here in RI, it's a bunch of thugs and criminals.

I just went round and round with BCBS. I was trying to determine how much I need to put aside in my FSA and they jerked me around until the deadline passed. You'll never get me to believe they are anything but the spawn of Satan.
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Re: Should the USA have Universal Health care??

PostBy: jeromemsn On: Sun Jan 11, 2009 7:53 pm

I see I'm not very good at getting my point of view across so will try one more time. Since health care is a for profit racket until they change the system to a not for profit system every one looses. It's hard for me to believe that people here really can't see what the problem is. We burn coal because we feel we have beat the system and the Arabs at taking so much of our money for something so basic as heat. Well how much more basic can it be than health care. Why have they made it so difficult to stay alive. The drugs that they make will sell forever unless they find a new drug or until they find that the drugs don't really work. So when you look at forever to make money on a drug seems like they don't need to make it cost so much. I decided a long time ago I was not going to lengthen my life taking a bunch of pills (thats my decision not your decision and so far it has worked for me) so there not going to be making a whole lot of money from me anyway, well Mr. Bayer will, lol. But when I see all the kids that don't get to make a choice I mean really and we say we are better than monkey's lmao.
People at this stage of society should never be to cold or to hot or hungry in my opinion. The world is going to change and as I see it we will not hear of nationalized banks or other companies being nationalized we will hear that they have been globalized. when we went to the "to big to fail" that was just another step. (My own thought here, If you believe there is a supreme being you might want to start a savings plan soon, just think what the going rate is for getting in there, maybe thats why there are two places to go an expensive high rise and a no rent shanty town)
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