Embryonic Stem Cell Research - Finally!

Stockinful,

I use the bible as a guide "same yesterday,today and tomorrow" I do not change my mind because somebody found something new "there's nothing new under the sun" It just hasn't been found out yet. I use the bible as a guide not the things of the world. There are no scientific errors in the bible but there are scientific facts in the bible that were not found out until century's later. This is why I won't argue foolish statements made by others because no matter where you get facts to prove your point they always have excuse to void them. Those that defend the worlds view have much, much more faith than I do because they need to have more hope and wound much easier than I do. I accept Gods word on faith and He will Judge between "me and thee". I have a basis I can go to any time for "reproof, correction and doctrine to guide me on all things. So with that said I hope you understand where I stand and why.

Bill S

BillMarti wrote:I use the bible as a guide "same yesterday,today and tomorrow" I do not change my mind because somebody found something new "there's nothing new under the sun" It just hasn't been found out yet. I use the bible as a guide not the things of the world.

I'll just interject a thought here Bill.........Not knocking your religious beliefs but I would suggest that if you're looking for " a guide" ....perhaps you should use our Constitution & a few daily newspapers as a better guide to living in our secular nation. We live in a republican (small "R") democracy here Bill.....not the Theocracy that you evidently crave.

Devil,

As I said I'll use the guide that the Constitution is based on and If you can't grasp that then I suggest you make a visit to Washington D.C. and look what's written and painted on and in those government buildings or did you forget that like the present government and their supporters do. My guide never changes people try to change it and they always fall back on interpretation of it but it's written in plain english and it always witnesses to itself in several places so that excuse can be avoided. I read the Bible every day and am ever learning.

Bill S.

Devil ,

The bible does say to live and respect government authority unless it breaks God's direct commandments which also influenced many of our laws we have today. So I don't see a problem with the Bibles guide lines as mentioned before.

BillMarti wrote:Devil,

As I said I'll use the guide that the Constitution is based on and If you can't grasp that then I suggest you make a visit to Washington D.C. and look what's written and painted on and in those government buildings or did you forget that like the present government and their supporters do. My guide never changes people try to change it and they always fall back on interpretation of it but it's written in plain english and it always witnesses to itself in several places so that excuse can be avoided. I read the Bible every day and am ever learning.

Bill S.

We all obviously have a right to our beliefs, as long as they don't infringe on our neighbors. Personally, I believe the Bible is no different than any other book, written by man/men & (therefore) deserves no more "weight" than does "Moby Dick", "Catcher in the Rye" or any other book in history.
I don't want to lead this topic off into a discussion of religion but it is almost impossible to avoid having organized religion get into the mix here, so I will leave it at that.

Devil,

Point is Christian beliefs (Biblical precepts & statutes) not religion is in fact ingrained in all of our laws you can deny it all you want the fact is it's true and you or me can do nothing about it. So you and all those that think as you do don't have a foot to stand on. History and the buildings in Washington declare the truth the scripture is still there despite your best efforts to have them removed. Here's the definition of religion "Mans way to make himself righteous before God or instead of God". I am not a religious person but I am a Independent biblical christian. So religion and political correctness are 1 and the same. The bible says "Go and teach all nations" including your own.

Bill S.

Bill, I have the utmost respect for your religious beliefs; in fact, I agree with the respect they are accorded under our Constitution. But you're the one who brought up the subject of opinion vs. fact here, and that distinction has no greater application than to matters of faith.

So please don't try to persuade me that what's written in English in the Bible is a "fact." The English language didn't even exist until centuries after the events and statements which the Bible records. The English versions of the Bible were written by men, the type was set by men and the volumes were bound by men. So people like me, who don't accept the Bible as the "word of God," have four related problems with it: first are the biases of its original authors, second is the passage of time between the events and the first writing of the Bible, third is the number of "revisions" it has undergone and fourth are the many language translations. Any one of those influences alone could change the meaning substantially; in the aggregate, they create significant doubt concerning the accuracy of today's Bible -- even if one assumes (which many don't) that it originally was the "word of God." What it comes down to is that the statements in today's Bible are, at best, statements of history and faith, not of "fact."

The Bible is an inspirational book, no denying that. And you have an absolute right to believe the statements in it, as does everybody concerning the Torah, or the Koran, or any set of religious beliefs they may choose. What you don't have is the right to impose them on me. The First Amendment of our Constitution forbids that.

In particular, on matters relating to embryonic stem-cell research, the Bible is just another source of unsubstantiated opinion.

Man has had Gods or a God since man could think. It's just mans way to justify his reason for being here.

The stem cell thing doesn't bother me so much as a government that says it's OK to kill babies because The mother doesn't want it. I'm ashamed of our government.

In the Bible God says , I have know you from the time you were concived in the womb. He doesn't mention anything about a petre dish.

stockingfull wrote:In particular, on matters relating to embryonic stem-cell research, the Bible is just another source of unsubstantiated opinion.

Wow, you almost came across...well decent Stocking. Until of course you had to throw in the word "unsubstantiated ".
"Opinion", yes and as such it's used as a Source for Guidance for many and to form their Opinion.
But to say "unsubstantiated' belies that your telling a believer it's a false premise to begin with it. Kinda like saying "oh sure you have a point there" then turning your back and rolling your eyes.

I'm not saying that's what you meant, I'm just saying it sure seemed like it.

Let me try to put it another way.

NASA plans to search the universe for (what must be thousands of) other planets with conditions which would support "life" as we know it. Now, given that our planet, to say nothing of the universe, is millions of years old, it's conceivable that earth was "colonized" the last time our species screwed up the planet on which they were living. And a discontinuity like that certainly could influence the "evolution vs. intelligent design" debate. If somebody found some evidence of that -- other than the speculative hypothesis I just recited -- that would be "substantiation."

Elemental factual observations which, in the aggregate, support some thesis are "substantiation."

My hypothesis, and creationism, and the vast bulk of the rest of the Bible are, by that definition, "unsubstantiated" -- that is, they are stated without supporting evidence of their validity.

stockingfull wrote:Let me try to put it another way.
My hypothesis, and creationism, and the vast bulk of the rest of the Bible are, by that definition, "unsubstantiated" -- that is, they are stated without supporting evidence of their validity.

That point in that context is well taken.

Let put my earlier statement in anothe context as well, opinions based on ones religion ( such as the ones expressed above) and formed based on their teachings need not be "substantiated" becuase they are based on "Faith". To have Faith is to believe, to question fine, but Faith asks you to embrace that of which was taught. There are all kinds of things the Religions hold out as undiable truths. Some ( I presume you being in the group of skeptics) demand scintific evidence without anyother prerequisites other than the hypothesis and supporting evidence. Faith would not, and could not play any role and would actually ruin the argument supporting your reasons.

Faith is the very foundation, without it Religion would fail to exist, and I'm more than certain that you understand that.
Regettably, I lost my interest in organized fellowship years ago and trends are pointing downwards (except Islam) but I've not abandoned the idea of Faith in a power higher than us.

Speaking of NASA, this is a photo of the "Cross in space" taken from the Hubble telescope.

Cross, or demonic "X"?