Embryonic Stem Cell Research - Finally!

Re: Embryonic Stem Cell Research - Finally!

PostBy: kootch88 On: Fri Jan 23, 2009 2:03 pm

They don't even know why a cell turns to cancer. Now they
are going to make you believe that they can grow nerve cells
and get them where they are supposed to go and do what they
are supposed to do. Good friggn' luck. Bush had nothing to
do with the fact that the science is not yet there and probably
never will be.


Why not take this note you posted to your daughter and she probably can explain it to you.
kootch88
 
Coal Size/Type: Rice
Stove/Furnace Make: Reading
Stove/Furnace Model: Lehigh

Re: Embryonic Stem Cell Research - Finally!

PostBy: stockingfull On: Fri Jan 23, 2009 2:40 pm

mikeandgerry wrote:
Devil505 wrote:
stockingfull wrote:This is where change not only meets hope, but gives it. :clap:


Out of the darkness & back into the light! :up: :clap:



Apparently you and stockingfull didn't read pvolcko's post.

Bush isn't the root of all evil.

Get off it.

While stem cell research may be a good thing, the ethical considerations are huge. While repairing spinal cord injuries and the like are desireable outcomes, discovering the fountain of youth could be more of a curse than a blessing.

Fools rush in where angels fear to tread.

Maybe I didn't read it because I didn't know what pvolcko was going to post over an hour after my post.... bop2

But you know what? At least in this area, Bush was the root of all evil. The notion that he didn't hold up research is pure, unadulterated GOP BS. He issued an Executive Order in August 2001 blocking federal funding for the research. He controlled the FDA which didn't approve these studies for his entire term. He vetoed a bi-partisan Bill in 2007 -- a Bill that would only have affected embryos to be discarded. So, in actual fact, he was more concerned with the radical religious right than he was about the "life" he always professed to be "preserving." That comes pretty close to being the "root of all evil" in my book.

Read some of the facts; it makes the Kool-Aid seem a little less sweet. http://projects.washingtonpost.com/congress/109/senate/2/votes/206/
stockingfull
 
Stove/Furnace Make: Yellow Flame
Stove/Furnace Model: W.A. 150 Stoker Furnace

Re: Embryonic Stem Cell Research - Finally!

PostBy: mikeandgerry On: Fri Jan 23, 2009 3:23 pm

stockingfull wrote:
Maybe I didn't read it because I didn't know what pvolcko was going to post over an hour after my post.... bop2

But you know what? At least in this area, Bush was the root of all evil. The notion that he didn't hold up research is pure, unadulterated GOP BS. He issued an Executive Order in August 2001 blocking federal funding for the research. He controlled the FDA which didn't approve these studies for his entire term. He vetoed a bi-partisan Bill in 2007 -- a Bill that would only have affected embryos to be discarded. So, in actual fact, he was more concerned with the radical religious right than he was about the "life" he always professed to be "preserving." That comes pretty close to being the "root of all evil" in my book.

Read some of the facts; it makes the Kool-Aid seem a little less sweet. http://projects.washingtonpost.com/congress/109/senate/2/votes/206/


Obviously, pvolcko's post wouldn't have changed your mind.

What is pure unadulterated bs is the idea that stem cell research is a guaranteed panacea. Without hammering out the ethical problems first, it should not go forward. Period. Once the questions of ethics and impact are decided by the populace, go for it. But until then, no. Stem cells, if the theory is correct, have the potential to create as much suffering as they eradicate. There has been too little debate.

The radical left and the radical religious groups both have a place at the table according to Obama but he didn't even consider the religious, did he? No, he just callously mowed over their concerns. As I recall, this nation was founded mainly as a result of religious oppression in Europe. Thanks, stockingfull and Barack Obama for returning us to the 1600's.

How ironic. Obama should carry Lincoln's bible at all times, not just when he wants to show off.
mikeandgerry
 
Stoker Coal Boiler: Axeman-Anderson Anthratube 130-M


Re: Embryonic Stem Cell Research - Finally!

PostBy: ken On: Fri Jan 23, 2009 4:30 pm

The bottom line is bush blocked the research and held the FDA back. No federal funds for research or clinical trials. Same in the National Institute of Health (NIH) Embryonic Stem Cells have never fix or cured anything. If you open the book on Human Stem Cells theres pages of things they have cured or helped. ESC the book is empty. This will be a first try at helping people with ESC. It's not only SCI that can be helped , theres plenty of other things , cancer , cerebral palsy , parkinsons , alzheimers , on and on. They hold the key to stem cell growth. The research is only in it's early stages because of the fed block. California took it in there own hands. As did a few other states. University of Wisconsin is huge in ESC. Pvolcko needs to do a little research himself before he posts false information. :D
ken
 
Stove/Furnace Make: Keystoker - Rice Coal
Stove/Furnace Model: 75K - Bay Window - Direct Vent

Re: Embryonic Stem Cell Research - Finally!

PostBy: titleist1 On: Fri Jan 23, 2009 4:33 pm

"In fact, the company says, the project involves stem cells that were eligible for federal funding under Bush, although no federal money was used to develop the experimental treatment or to pay for the human study."

In the interest of fairness, this quote is from the AP article linked below.


http://hosted.ap.org/dynamic/stories/S/SCI_STEM_CELLS?SITE=WDUN&SECTION=HOME&TEMPLATE=DEFAULT
This link is broken, either the page no longer exists or there is some other issue like a typo.
titleist1
 
Hot Air Coal Stoker Stove: Harman Mag Stoker (old style) one in basement, one in workshop
Hand Fed Coal Stove: Harman Mark III on standby for long power outages
Coal Size/Type: Rice/Anthracite; Nut/Anthracite

Re: Embryonic Stem Cell Research - Finally!

PostBy: stockingfull On: Fri Jan 23, 2009 5:08 pm

mikeandgerry wrote:What is pure unadulterated bs is the idea that stem cell research is a guaranteed panacea. Without hammering out the ethical problems first, it should not go forward. Period. Once the questions of ethics and impact are decided by the populace, go for it. But until then, no. Stem cells, if the theory is correct, have the potential to create as much suffering as they eradicate. There has been too little debate.

The radical left and the radical religious groups both have a place at the table according to Obama but he didn't even consider the religious, did he? No, he just callously mowed over their concerns. As I recall, this nation was founded mainly as a result of religious oppression in Europe. Thanks, stockingfull and Barack Obama for returning us to the 1600's.

How ironic. Obama should carry Lincoln's bible at all times, not just when he wants to show off.


First, by definition "research" is what you do to see if progress in an area can be made. So to say that the research itself is "no guaranteed panacea" completely misses the essential point of that and all research.

Second, to prefer discarding embryos as "medical waste" over using them for potentially life-saving medical research is hardly Lincolnesque. It's absurd and, thankfully, it's no longer the policy of the federal gov't.
stockingfull
 
Stove/Furnace Make: Yellow Flame
Stove/Furnace Model: W.A. 150 Stoker Furnace

Re: Embryonic Stem Cell Research - Finally!

PostBy: beemerboy On: Fri Jan 23, 2009 5:29 pm

mikeandgerry wrote:What is pure unadulterated bs is the idea that stem cell research is a guaranteed panacea. Without hammering out the ethical problems first, it should not go forward. Period. Once the questions of ethics and impact are decided by the populace, go for it. But until then, no. Stem cells, if the theory is correct, have the potential to create as much suffering as they eradicate. There has been too little debate.

The radical left and the radical religious groups both have a place at the table according to Obama but he didn't even consider the religious, did he? No, he just callously mowed over their concerns. As I recall, this nation was founded mainly as a result of religious oppression in Europe. Thanks, stockingfull and Barack Obama for returning us to the 1600's.

How ironic. Obama should carry Lincoln's bible at all times, not just when he wants to show off.


While stem cell research is not a guaranteed cure all, preventing research is a guarantee that there will not be any cures. Hammering out the ethical problems is fine, but, who decides what the ethics are? The Baptist Church? The Catholic Church? The University of your state? The ACLU? No matter who decides what the ethics are there will be a hundred people who will disagree and the discussion will go on forever without any decision made.

The religious oppression of the 1600's was not that people were not allowed to be religious, but that they were required to follow what the Church of England told them. In other words, religion was the oppressor.

Now is the time to take religion out of the equation and return to the study of science and return the USA to being the worlds leader.

The last administration was afraid of science because they didn't understand it.
beemerboy
 
Stove/Furnace Make: SAEY
Stove/Furnace Model: Hannover 1

Re: Embryonic Stem Cell Research - Finally!

PostBy: tsb On: Fri Jan 23, 2009 5:38 pm

Kootch88

My daughter did explain it to me. That's why I posted it.
As for clinical trials. They have done some and they we
all failures in one way or another. Some deadly.
The main stream media will never give bad news on stem cell.
A woman died at a University in Philadelphia from total body
reaction to a stem cell trial.
Like nuclear fusion, good idea, just a long way off.
tsb
 
Stoker Coal Boiler: Binford 2000
Hot Air Coal Stoker Stove: LL Pioneer top vent
Hand Fed Coal Stove: Saey Hanover II

Re: Embryonic Stem Cell Research - Finally!

PostBy: mikeandgerry On: Fri Jan 23, 2009 5:57 pm

beemerboy wrote:While stem cell research is not a guaranteed cure all, preventing research is a guarantee that there will not be any cures. Hammering out the ethical problems is fine, but, who decides what the ethics are? The Baptist Church? The Catholic Church? The University of your state? The ACLU? No matter who decides what the ethics are there will be a hundred people who will disagree and the discussion will go on forever without any decision made.

The religious oppression of the 1600's was not that people were not allowed to be religious, but that they were required to follow what the Church of England told them. In other words, religion was the oppressor.

Now is the time to take religion out of the equation and return to the study of science and return the USA to being the worlds leader.

The last administration was afraid of science because they didn't understand it.


GWB didn't prevent the research.

The ethics and ramifications must be decided first.

We all collectively decide the ethics through our legislature.

Oppression is oppression is oppression.

Religion and science are always a part of the equation.

By excluding religion from the debate you affirm that you are an oppressor of religion.

Check your constitution. The religious have a say and are here to stay .
mikeandgerry
 
Stoker Coal Boiler: Axeman-Anderson Anthratube 130-M

Re: Embryonic Stem Cell Research - Finally!

PostBy: pvolcko On: Fri Jan 23, 2009 6:03 pm

ken wrote:The so called "presidianl line" of embryonic stem cells bush had aboved for study were all contaminated and were pretty much usless. bush stop any new line of embryonic stem cell reasearch with fed money. Plenty of places were doing ESC with their own money like Geron. Now the FDA had a hold on clinical tials using ESC because of bushs stupidy and not caring about his fellow man. He's gone thank God and the ban has been lifed. Geron's study was put on hold for over a year because the FDA had the ban.


The article clearly stated that 20 or so lines were still usable and indeed they were used as part of the research this article described. There were many more than 20 that were authorized but only 20 or so were viable, again according to the article. And again, there are plenty of embryos for producing new stem cells out there that can be had for privately funded research. Stem cell line availability was not a hindrance here. Lack of federal funding might have been, but frankly, and I say this with no ill will toward those who see hope in this particularly type of research; I don't care. There are plenty of private sources of medical R&D funding, there are plenty of state funding sources, plenty of funding sources in/from other countries. They only managed to scrape up $40mil for this effort. In an industry worth billions, if not trillions, I think that is a pretty damning indictment of the perceived practical potential of this effort.

I hope I'm wrong and that this study and research leads to something great. I hope Geron and its investors make truck loads of money off of it. But I am fine with no federal money being spent on it and do not consider it an injustice or some kind of evil that there wasn't federal money available for this effort. And indeed, since approved stem cell lines were used here, it potentially could have accepted some federal funding. My guess is they didn't limit to just those lines which is why they didn't take fed funding.

That said, I would like to see rule changes that allow waste embyos from IVF to be used in federally funded research. I think it is important that there is no financial reward for either the egg/sperm donor nor for the clinic/facility doing the IVF. The donors must be afforded the option to decide if their waste embyos can be used for this kind of research and the choice should only be offered when they choose to discard any remaining embyos, not early in the process. If possible a system should be setup whereby a clinic doesn't know where research embryos are going and research facilities do not know where they came from. Donor information attached to the embyos should be as anonymized as possible. All this to make sure no financial or "status" incentive forms which might result in unnecessary extra embryos being created for the purpose of research.

Use of remains from abortion is more ethically and morally dubious. It is bad enough federal money is used to fund abortions and abortion providers, such as Planned Parenthood, to compound that by federally funding use of the remains... Have to put more thought into that one.

Also, I saw nothing in the article about the FDA blocking anything on this and don't recall hearing about such a block on ESC studies or treatments, only that review and approval took longer than normal due to the novel nature of the proposed study. Can you provide a source to back up that accusation?
pvolcko
 

Re: Embryonic Stem Cell Research - Finally!

PostBy: tvb On: Fri Jan 23, 2009 6:23 pm

Religion and science are always a part of the equation.

By excluding religion from the debate you affirm that you are an oppressor of religion.

Check your constitution. The religious have a say and are here to stay .


Someone needs to explain the first amendment to you.

Freedom of religion means that you are free to worship as you see fit. It does NOT mean that you are free to shove your religious beliefs onto others who aren't interested. By demanding that your religious beliefs be part of the equation, you are actually asking the government to violate the same amendment you are erroneously trying to uphold.

Your specific religious beliefs should have no role in the discussion, nor should mine.

Further, for those who think the rights of "potential babies" are being violated or worse, that some type of living being is being killed, please share some pictures of the blastocysts you've adopted into your family.
tvb
 
Stove/Furnace Make: Alaska
Stove/Furnace Model: Channing III

Re: Embryonic Stem Cell Research - Finally!

PostBy: stockingfull On: Fri Jan 23, 2009 6:38 pm

1. People are, as voters, entitled to their religious beliefs. Where, however, those beliefs come into conflict with the clear church-state separation in the 1st Amendment, they must give way. But that endless debate is a distraction here, since the embryos in question were to be rendered incapable of growing into humans in either event; what we're really talking about here is much more like organ donation than it is to abortion. ESC research has the real potential for life to beget life. It really ought to have the support of people who say they are "pro-life."

2. While the FDA approval for Geron's trials is not the direct result of an Obama Executive Order, the idea that his election and the beginning of his term in office had "nothing to do" with the approval today is truly the stuff of fiction in a town like Washington, where there are so many fingers in the air in election years that a new meaning could be given for the term "wind power." :out:
stockingfull
 
Stove/Furnace Make: Yellow Flame
Stove/Furnace Model: W.A. 150 Stoker Furnace

Re: Embryonic Stem Cell Research - Finally!

PostBy: mikeandgerry On: Fri Jan 23, 2009 7:02 pm

stockingfull wrote:1. People are, as voters, entitled to their religious beliefs. Where, however, those beliefs come into conflict with the clear church-state separation in the 1st Amendment, they must give way. But that endless debate is a distraction here, since the embryos in question were to be rendered incapable of growing into humans in either event; what we're really talking about here is much more like organ donation than it is to abortion. ESC research has the real potential for life to beget life. It really ought to have the support of people who say they are "pro-life."

2. While the FDA approval for Geron's trials is not the direct result of an Obama Executive Order, the idea that his election and the beginning of his term in office had "nothing to do" with the approval today is truly the stuff of fiction in a town like Washington, where there are so many fingers in the air in election years that a new meaning could be given for the term "wind power." :out:


The clear church-state separation enumerated in the Constitution is for the government to keep its hands off of religion. The word "respecting" in the establishment clause has been loosely and capriciously interpreted by the left.

As for the embyros and stem cells, I don't really care. I don't believe an embryo is human until the ninth week in utero. Until science and religion define that which is human we will argue about abortion, cloning and stem cells.

What I care about is the unknown ramifications of stem cells in cloning humans, human organs and prolonging life beyond what nature intended for the sake of our future and our decendants. Bush was right to halt the research until the ethics have been settled.
mikeandgerry
 
Stoker Coal Boiler: Axeman-Anderson Anthratube 130-M

Re: Embryonic Stem Cell Research - Finally!

PostBy: Devil505 On: Fri Jan 23, 2009 7:06 pm

mikeandgerry wrote:The clear church-state separation enumerated in the Constitution is for the government to keep its hands off of religion.


That's your interpretation which I think is clearly wrong. Our founding Fathers were rebeling against the repression of the King & Church of England. The more accepted interpretation has always been that separation of church & state was meant to protect the people's government from the dogma of the Church. You can't state your OPINION as fact.
Devil505
 
Stove/Furnace Make: Harman
Stove/Furnace Model: TLC-2000

Re: Embryonic Stem Cell Research - Finally!

PostBy: ken On: Fri Jan 23, 2009 7:14 pm

Pvolcko, I don't care what the articles says about ESC lines used. The "presidential" ESC lines were contaminated and useless. Geron used their own financial resources to develop their own ESC research with no federal monies. For Geron to come up with the 40 mil was a huge undertaking on their part and their investors. Hopefully it will pay them back nicely. Pvolcko, trust me, bush had a block on any federal funds used for research or the equipment used for research on ESC, through the FDA and the NIH. Like I posted just a bit ago, Geron did this on their own. About 6 or 8 months ago, the FDA stepped in and halted Geron's clinical trials for ESC. Geron had to submit tons of info to try and convince the FDA to release the hold which never happened. Now that the FDA no longer has a restriction on ESC research and funding, the clinical trials are moving forward.
Last edited by ken on Fri Jan 23, 2009 7:25 pm, edited 1 time in total.
ken
 
Stove/Furnace Make: Keystoker - Rice Coal
Stove/Furnace Model: 75K - Bay Window - Direct Vent