Obama's 1st Major Mistake

Re: Obama's 1st Major Mistake

PostBy: Devil505 On: Mon Jan 26, 2009 9:14 pm

OldAA130 wrote: Devil505 wrote:
It would have to be large enough to fight conventional enemy forces (including light mechanized forces) but compact enough to be able to react quickly & deploy anywhere in the world on a moment's notice. It would also have to be exempt from the "Posse Comitatus" laws so that it would have jurisdiction within our country as well as overseas..

Have you ever heard of the Green Berets?


Forgot to respond to this b4:

The Green Berets is strictly an elite Army military unit, like the Navy SEALS, with no "Police" type training, intelligence capability or exemption from "Posse Comitatus" laws. Nothing at all like the new force I am proposing which would need to be much more robust, self-contained & self sufficient than the US Army Green Berets.
The Green Berets was a new concept under JFK in 1960, designed to train Montanyard tribesmen in SE Asia & fight the wars of last century.
We are now in the 21si Century & need new tools to fight the international (mainly Muslim) criminal groups that have no State allegiance, fight with no civilized rules of land warfare & utilize the tactic of Terror as their main weapon.
Just a few ideas, off the top of my head (what's left of it :lol: ) as to what this new force would need:

1. Self sufficient for transportation of personnel & equipment. (their own fleet of aircraft & flight crews)
2. Strong "Intelligence" capability & work closely with FBI, CIA & all military Intelligence
3. Police & Military training including heavy emphasis on U.S. Constitutional & International Law
4. 24/7 /365 alert status
5. Special access to FISA court & a cadre of AUSA's.
6. & much more


Edit: I fully understand the potential danger to a free society that such a force could present & there would have to be strict oversight of every move this force engaged in. With that caveat though, I think the potential danger would be superseded by the utility of this force if properly used & controlled.
Last edited by Devil505 on Mon Jan 26, 2009 9:51 pm, edited 2 times in total.
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Re: Obama's 1st Major Mistake

PostBy: KLook On: Mon Jan 26, 2009 9:17 pm

They are still not worth a crap if they have to keep their hands in plain sight. And who do they answer to?
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Re: Obama's 1st Major Mistake

PostBy: Devil505 On: Mon Jan 26, 2009 9:36 pm

KLook wrote:They are still not worth a crap if they have to keep their hands in plain sight. And who do they answer to?


Same as all national emergencies now......National Command Authority

http://www.answers.com/topic/national-command-authority
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Re: Obama's 1st Major Mistake

PostBy: Black_And_Blue On: Mon Jan 26, 2009 9:43 pm

Re : Mistakes ......1st, 2nd, 3rd......

The amount of blunders that emanate from Washington will eclipse the bandwidth of this server.

The only debate which remains is whether they are from ignorance, arrogance or deliberate malicious intent.
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Re: Obama's 1st Major Mistake

PostBy: jpete On: Mon Jan 26, 2009 9:56 pm

Devil505 wrote:
1. Self sufficient for transportation of personnel & equipment. (their own fleet of aircraft & flight crews)
2. Strong "Intelligence" capability & work closely with FBI, CIA & all military Intelligence
3. Police & Military training including heavy emphasis on U.S. Constitutional & International Law
4. 24/7 /365 alert status
5. Special access to FISA court & a cadre of AUSA's.
6. & much more.


Blackwater nearly fits this description. Do you really want a group of people accused of firing indiscriminately in civilians running around the country?
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Re: Obama's 1st Major Mistake

PostBy: Devil505 On: Mon Jan 26, 2009 10:17 pm

jpete wrote:
Devil505 wrote:
1. Self sufficient for transportation of personnel & equipment. (their own fleet of aircraft & flight crews)
2. Strong "Intelligence" capability & work closely with FBI, CIA & all military Intelligence
3. Police & Military training including heavy emphasis on U.S. Constitutional & International Law
4. 24/7 /365 alert status
5. Special access to FISA court & a cadre of AUSA's.
6. & much more.


Blackwater nearly fits this description. Do you really want a group of people accused of firing indiscriminately in civilians running around the country?


Blackwater is a civilian gang of mercenaries. What I'm envisioning is too Blackwater...what the U.S. Navy is to the Pirates of the Caribbean! :lol:
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Re: Obama's 1st Major Mistake

PostBy: OldAA130 On: Mon Jan 26, 2009 11:00 pm

Devil505 wrote:I have raised my right hand & sworn to Protect & defend this country many times, & it wasn't to any news media. How many times have you been sworn in to serve your country?


You've got me there... I've not served in any police force or military capacity. I'm just another dumby who burns coal wasting my time talking about the two tabboos... politics and religion.

I sincerely mean no insult or disrespect. Just healthy debate.

I can't however accept much of what you post. It seems as though if I read you right that Bush did absolutely nothing right. That's far too polarized a view for me. we could post until the cows come home how Bush was an idiot/no he wasn't/yes he was... On and on and on and on... It really doesn't matter what I think.

I still haven't seen in this thread (or any for that matter) what the answer is for these terrorists captured and detained. Should we start reading them their miranda rights before taking them into custody? and we already have a quasi police/military force... it's called the department of agriculture. just google some recent articles about them storming farms SWAT style with black jumpsuits and mp-5 cocked and loaded. All because people aren't selling milk the correct way. Just a couple of miles from here... children forced to the ground at gunpoint because their parent's apparent food violations???? This is the type of thing you are promoting. Remember, the government oversight almost never benefits the common citizen.

Most of this discussion seems too limp wristed for me. Reagan's motto was peace through strength. I believe what he did worked. He took over where Carter failed miserably. And the previous 35 years contributed to the continuation of the cold war not the ending of it. You can argue all you want about the Reagan economic policies but you cannot argue about his military policy. With or without Beirut.

Obama's first mistake? maybe closing Gitmo, but his biggest mistake will be the fairness doctrine.

So anyway... I'm going to quietly walk outta here and go back over to the side where they talk about coal.
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Re: Obama's 1st Major Mistake

PostBy: Devil505 On: Mon Jan 26, 2009 11:25 pm

let me reply in random order:


OldAA130 wrote:You've got me there... I've not served in any police force or military capacity. I'm just another dumby who burns coal wasting my time talking about the two tabboos... politics and religion.

I sincerely mean no insult or disrespect. Just healthy debate.So anyway... I'm going to quietly walk outta here and go back over to the side where they talk about coal.



Please don't walk away. One of the "Fun" aspects of this site is the often "Enthusiastic" :lol: ...tenor of the verbal debates we have on many subjects while never losing sight of the main topic...Coal burning! We are all human here & sometimes push the envelope a bit, in terms of civility, but it's all amongst us "Coal Brothers."



When I said this:,..."I have raised my right hand & sworn to Protect & defend this country many times, & it wasn't to any news media. How many times have you been sworn in to serve your country?"
It was in response to this from you: OldAA130 wrote:Stop pledging alliegence to the news media and pledge alliegence to your country. But then again, I'm sure you will debate these points as well...

Which I took as being a bit harsh, calling for a similar response in tone....Not personal, just tone.

OldAA130 wrote:I can't however accept much of what you post.


You are not alone in that thinking :lol: ....but there are more & more of us here now with more moderate views than a year ago.

OldAA130 wrote:we could post until the cows come home how Bush was an idiot/no he wasn't/yes he was... On and on and on and on..


Agreed....but it beats the hell out of watching American Idol, doesn't it? ;)

OldAA130 wrote:Most of this discussion seems too limp wristed for me. Reagan's motto was peace through strength. I believe what he did worked. He took over where Carter failed miserably.


I would simply remind you that Carter launched an aggressive military assault into Iran, which tragically...failed miserably, through no fault of President Carter. Reagan, on the other hand, failed to respond at all to the 1983 terrorist bombing of the Marine barracks in Beirut which killed 241 U.S. personnel.

OldAA130 wrote:Obama's first mistake? maybe closing Gitmo, but his biggest mistake will be the fairness doctrine.


You are entitled to your opinion as I am to mine. It is virtually un-debatable the Gitmo has become a symbol of U.S. incompetence & inhumanity. Eeven former President Bush wanted it closed.


Stay in the fight!! :cheers:
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Re: Obama's 1st Major Mistake

PostBy: jpete On: Mon Jan 26, 2009 11:28 pm

Devil505 wrote:
jpete wrote:
Devil505 wrote:
1. Self sufficient for transportation of personnel & equipment. (their own fleet of aircraft & flight crews)
2. Strong "Intelligence" capability & work closely with FBI, CIA & all military Intelligence
3. Police & Military training including heavy emphasis on U.S. Constitutional & International Law
4. 24/7 /365 alert status
5. Special access to FISA court & a cadre of AUSA's.
6. & much more.


Blackwater nearly fits this description. Do you really want a group of people accused of firing indiscriminately in civilians running around the country?


Blackwater is a civilian gang of mercenaries. What I'm envisioning is too Blackwater...what the U.S. Navy is to the Pirates of the Caribbean! :lol:


Well if not Blackwater, then we already have what you want. It's called "The Police". And I'm not talking about the 80's band.

And the PD already has there fair share of abusive members. Now you want something over and above them? No thanks. I fear that FAR more than I do any "terrorist".
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Re: Obama's 1st Major Mistake

PostBy: KLook On: Tue Jan 27, 2009 8:47 am

Why is it when Carter's blunder in the sand was not his fault but the lack of toilet paper in a NY subway station is Bush's? Exaggerating of course but you get my point.
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Re: Obama's 1st Major Mistake

PostBy: OldAA130 On: Tue Jan 27, 2009 8:55 am

KLook wrote:Why is it when Carter's blunder in the sand was not his fault but the lack of toilet paper in a NY subway station is Bush's? Exaggerating of course but you get my point.


I think the answer to your question is that for folks who lean that way it's all one sided. You make my earlier point very well. It seems a waste to keep debating these issues. You always come back to the same points that make no sense.

Carter was one of the worst presidents in the history of this country. The left hold him up as a hero.

It's like a political game of pin the tail on the donkey... but the donkey is not a fixed target and instead of a blindfold you have to have acid splashed in your eyes. That's what this conversation feels like. :bang:
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Re: Obama's 1st Major Mistake

PostBy: stockingfull On: Tue Jan 27, 2009 3:29 pm

OldAA130 wrote:
KLook wrote:Why is it when Carter's blunder in the sand was not his fault but the lack of toilet paper in a NY subway station is Bush's? Exaggerating of course but you get my point.


I think the answer to your question is that for folks who lean that way it's all one sided. You make my earlier point very well. It seems a waste to keep debating these issues. You always come back to the same points that make no sense.

Carter was one of the worst presidents in the history of this country. The left hold him up as a hero.

It's like a political game of pin the tail on the donkey... but the donkey is not a fixed target and instead of a blindfold you have to have acid splashed in your eyes. That's what this conversation feels like. :bang:


Not me. Here's what I said in the "Do you want your Prez to fail?" thread over in Flame Suit Central <removed link to FSC> :

And I never voted for Carter, thought he was a lousy President, yet wasn't "happy" as his presidency foundered.


See, boyz, the generalizations just don't fit. IMO, Carter was too idealistic, too "pure" to be an effective President. Yet his intellect, sincerity and forthrightness have always made him extremely valuable as a go-between in the Mideast. At least, that's what the Nobel voters thought. People have different strengths and weaknesses; after the corruption of Tricky Dick, people wanted that "purity" but didn't realize that the Presidency is a very "real-world" job, where tough bargains have to be struck and "sausage" made. It ain't always pretty. Not Carter's ideal environment.

After the "closed shop" of Dubya's one-party rule, people want some bi-partisanship. And in fact, with his second meeting with the House and Senate Republicans today, Obama tied Bush's record for such cross-aisle meetings for the entirety of his 8-year Presidency.

However it turns out, we should be celebrating the dialogue. It's a helluva lot more than the Republicans ever afforded the Democrats when they held the power.
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Re: Obama's 1st Major Mistake

PostBy: gerard On: Thu Jan 29, 2009 8:35 pm

I would simply remind you that Carter launched an aggressive military assault into Iran, which tragically...failed miserably, through no fault of President Carter. Reagan, on the other hand, failed to respond at all to the 1983 terrorist bombing of the Marine barracks in Beirut which killed 241 U.S. personnel.


Apples and oranges again Devil. Carter belatedly launched a failed mission a YEAR after they were taken hostage AND their location known. Doesn't take THAT long to put an ops together, It DOES take that long to talk a pacifistic peanut farmer into launching a military strike.

Regan (I'm assuming here), did not have a clearl defined target to retaliate against after the marine barracks bombing. If he had do you seriously think it wouldn't have been taken???? Sorry for confusing things again with logic.............

Say what you want about Regan but since other countries are NEVER going to love us, I'll settle for having them fear us and that is NOT going to happen with our current president who says in his innaurgal address that we will not apoligize for our way of life (I actually liked that part), then does a 180 and talks about opening a dialogue with iran, admits we've not always been open to other points of view in the past etc et. Sure sounded apologetic to me...........
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Re: Obama's 1st Major Mistake

PostBy: Devil505 On: Thu Jan 29, 2009 8:54 pm

gerard wrote:Say what you want about Regan but since other countries are NEVER going to love us, I'll settle for having them fear us


Yup...Basically the Bush Doctrine of preemptive war.........& look how well that doctrine has worked for this country.
On 11/6/2008, a majority of American voters decided that we needed a change from the failed policies of the prior administration & rejoin the rest of the world in trying to understand each other & use diplomacy instead of 500lb cluster bombs.
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Re: Obama's 1st Major Mistake

PostBy: gerard On: Thu Jan 29, 2009 9:05 pm

Only time will tell. Maybe the world would be a different place if we had listened to Neville Chamberlain and Joe Kennedy. No one will ever really know. Guess I just belive there's little room to negotiate with religious zealots, who, believe above all else, I'm an infidel whose head should be cut off. (It's tough to win a battle when you're the only one following the rules). When some of the moderate muslims start speaking up and condenming the fundamentalists, THEN I'll have some hope for negotiation but I don't see that happening yet. I think a quote from Benjamin Netanyahu sums up the middle east pretty well:

"If the arabs laid down their arms tomorrow there would be peace in the middle east. If the Israelis laid down their arms tomorrow there would be no more Israel" :D
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