Obama's 1st Major Mistake

Re: Obama's 1st Major Mistake

PostBy: e.alleg On: Fri Jan 23, 2009 8:20 pm

They need to break out the rack, just like in medieval times. That will get 'em to talk, guaranteed. Everybody understands the universal language of pain.
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Re: Obama's 1st Major Mistake

PostBy: mikeandgerry On: Fri Jan 23, 2009 9:22 pm

Freddy wrote:
mikeandgerry wrote:Did you not see....


Yes, of course I saw all the awful, inhumane things and they sicken me. Anyone that smiled the day the towers fell deserves to rot in hell. BUT, I will not lower myself, nor do I appreciate the government lowering to the inhumane standards of al-qaeda. Without question prisoners were tortured. That is against all we believe in and against the rules of war. Just because the enemy doesn't play by the rules does not allow us to do the same. Mom would simply say "Two wrongs don't make a right".


I think the point is that we didn't lower our standards. We have maintained humane standards far in excess of our previous standards. My point is that we have allowed a biased press to create and enforce the standards. It isn't their job to do that. We didn't do anything wrong. We were the one's attacked. There was no torture or cruel and unusual punishment. Waterboarding doesn't even come close to torture.

If you think we were awful in this campaign, you should research what we did to win against Hitler and Japan. There is no question that ruthlessness won WWII.

Mom was right and we didn't commit a "wrong" with Gitmo.

This will be viewed as a sign of weakness. Expect more attacks.
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Re: Obama's 1st Major Mistake

PostBy: whistlenut On: Fri Jan 23, 2009 9:46 pm

How many of you guys wore the uniform? I'm getting a little nervous as I read your comments. Anyone have a son or daughter in uniform defending your rights? Many of us do, some on their fourth tour in Iraq. Ask them about the REAL world. Nuff said......................................
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Re: Obama's 1st Major Mistake

PostBy: Devil505 On: Fri Jan 23, 2009 10:06 pm

mikeandgerry wrote:I think the point is that we didn't lower our standards. We have maintained humane standards far in excess of our previous standards.


Where do you come up with this bologna? Why do you think The President of The United States just ordered all U.S. personnel to return to the interrogation limits in the Army Field Manual?...Why is the U.N. seriously looking into potential war crimes?



mikeandgerry wrote:We didn't do anything wrong.


According to who?....You??



mikeandgerry wrote:We were the one's attacked.


So that gives us the right to disregard the Geneva conventions?

mikeandgerry wrote:Waterboarding doesn't even come close to torture.


That's not what our President & the incoming Atty. General say.


(I suggest moving this topic to Flame Central so we can all just take off the gloves)
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Re: Obama's 1st Major Mistake

PostBy: ray in ma On: Fri Jan 23, 2009 10:24 pm

whistlenut wrote:How many of you guys wore the uniform? I'm getting a little nervous as I read your comments. Anyone have a son or daughter in uniform defending your rights? Many of us do, some on their fourth tour in Iraq. Ask them about the REAL world. Nuff said......................................


I gotta agree with Freddy on this one, I work with a program for combat vets (mostly coming back from Afghanistan) and the stuff these guys have to deal with just to survive. You come quickly to the conclusion that Al-Queda, Taliban or who ever they are have no regard and no tolerance for people that don't agree with them 100%. They make the Mafia look like amateurs but how are we any better if we lower our standards and play by their rules?

I like the line President Obama had in his inauguration speech "Let you be judged by what you can build, not what you can destroy"
Unfortunately they don't get it.
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Re: Obama's 1st Major Mistake

PostBy: mikeandgerry On: Fri Jan 23, 2009 11:23 pm

Devil,

The subject of waterboarding didn't even hit the radarscreen as a form of torture until the liberal democrats made it an issue in 2004. it was virtually unheard of before then. The press blew it out of proportion because they are political hacks.

The rest of the article below takes your side but I suggest a few things:

1. If waterboarding was torture, journalists and other fools wouldn't be volunteering to try it to see if it qualifies. Let see them try pulling off finger nails or taking electric shocks or taking severe blows to the head to verify if that is torture.

2. The severity of the waterboarding comes into question. We don't know how long the prisoners were subjected to this. If it were just for a few seconds as I suspect, it just doesn't qualify. I doubt there was much duration in the event. We want them to comply, not die.

3. The technique was just used on high value subjects. It wasn't generally applied.

4. The topic is subject to debate.

5. The UN will never apply it's morality to the nations that need it applied to. The UN is a joke.


From Wikipedia:

"Controversy over classification as torture in the United States
Whether waterboarding should be classified as a method of torture was not widely debated in the United States before it was alleged, in 2004, that members of the CIA have used the technique against certain suspected detained terrorists.[39][40] Since then, some commentators have argued that waterboarding as an interrogation method should not qualify as torture in certain circumstances while other individuals have refused to state whether they would consider waterboarding to be torture without knowing the specific facts of a situation.

Andrew C. McCarthy, a licensed attorney and former U.S. federal prosecutor now serving as director of the Center for Law and Counterterrorism, states in an October 2007 op-ed in National Review that he believes that, when used "some number of instances that were not prolonged or extensive", waterboarding should not qualify as torture under the law. McCarthy continues: "Personally, I don't believe it qualifies. It is not in the nature of the barbarous sadism universally condemned as torture, an ignominy the law, as we've seen, has been patently careful not to trivialize or conflate with lesser evils".[33] Nevertheless, McCarthy in the same article admits that "waterboarding is close enough to torture that reasonable minds can differ on whether it is torture" and that "[t]here shouldn’t be much debate that subjecting someone to [waterboarding] repeatedly would cause the type of mental anguish required for torture".[33]

Some American politicians have unequivocally stated that it is their belief that waterboarding is not torture. In response to the question "Do you believe waterboarding is torture?" on the Glenn Beck Program, Representative Ted Poe stated "I don't believe it's torture at all, I certainly don't". Beck agreed with him.[36] The American conservative media commentator Jim Meyers has stated, in a December 2007 Newsmax.com opinion piece, that he does not believe that waterboarding should be classified as a form of torture, because he does not believe it inflicts pain.[41]"
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Re: Obama's 1st Major Mistake

PostBy: kootch88 On: Fri Jan 23, 2009 11:33 pm

McCain believes it is torture doesn't he? I think he would know a thing or two about torture first hand. “All I can say is that it was used in the Spanish Inquisition, it was used in Pol Pot’s genocide in Cambodia, and there are reports that it is being used against Buddhist monks today,” McCain said in interview with the New York Times in response to Giuliani comments. “They should know what it is. It is not a complicated procedure. It is torture.”
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Re: Obama's 1st Major Mistake

PostBy: mikeandgerry On: Fri Jan 23, 2009 11:35 pm

ray in ma wrote:...how are we any better if we lower our standards and play by their rules?


How will we be better off if we can't stop them?


I like the line President Obama had in his inauguration speech "Let you be judged by what you can build, not what you can destroy" [/quote]

I like the line too, too bad he didn't mean it. He's destroyed years worth of military work and the enemy's fear of the US in one stupid action.
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Re: Obama's 1st Major Mistake

PostBy: mikeandgerry On: Fri Jan 23, 2009 11:40 pm

kootch88 wrote:McCain believes it is torture doesn't he? I think he would know a thing or two about torture first hand. “All I can say is that it was used in the Spanish Inquisition, it was used in Pol Pot’s genocide in Cambodia, and there are reports that it is being used against Buddhist monks today,” McCain said in interview with the New York Times in response to Giuliani comments. “They should know what it is. It is not a complicated procedure. It is torture.”


Did you read the Wikipedia article?

Degrees matter. The press manipulated public sentiment. The press is the problem. They are doing your thinking for you.

Consider what it took to win WWII. Should we have not interred Japanese citizens? Should we not have targeted Adm. Yamamoto? Should we not have fire-bombed Dresden? Should we have not bombed Tokyo? Should we not have nuked Hiroshima or Nagasaki?

Would you prefer to be free or subjects of the Third Reich or the Imperial Chrysanthemum?
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Re: Obama's 1st Major Mistake

PostBy: kootch88 On: Fri Jan 23, 2009 11:49 pm

Torture is wrong, at least from our agreeing to the Geneva Convention. We signed on to the Geneva convention long ago. If we believe it is a crock of *censored* then we should have rejected it, period. All I am saying is McCain believes it is torture and so did a lot of others who have used it, including our country. Obama thinks it is torture, McCain thinks it is torture and I believe it is torture. The press doesn't drag my mind around like a dog on a leash. Some of the information out there I reject, some I accept, just like opinions stated on this site.

Closing Gitmo may be a mistake, but it has helped a larger international perception that this country is no longer the great moral light we once were. Because of this perception, I think it had to be closed. We do not live in an isolated world and like it or not, international perception does matter. It also impacts our international relations.
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Re: Obama's 1st Major Mistake

PostBy: Wood'nCoal On: Sat Jan 24, 2009 12:08 am

If you put these pieces of offal into American prisons they will recruit from within those walls.


They will also be subject to our laws, that's why they are still in Gitmo.

I don't think the detainees at Gitmo have been treated unfairly, but if anyone would like to present evidence to the contrary I'll be happy to read it.
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Re: Obama's 1st Major Mistake

PostBy: coaledsweat On: Sat Jan 24, 2009 12:12 am

kootch88 wrote:Torture is wrong, at least from our agreeing to the Geneva Convention. We signed on to the Geneva convention long ago.

We do not live in an isolated world and like it or not, international perception does matter. It also impacts our international relations.


I wasn't aware that Al Quida had signed the Geneva Convention, if they didn't, why would you afford them it's benefits? Isn't it an agreement between participants? People think that war has to be a neat tidy thing that you can tell your grandchildren about. War is something you need to win if you want to talk to your grandchildren. Most of our parents generation knows all about that.

We have bailed the rest of the world out twice now, and wrote it off. Today our friends (like the French, who only can tolerate us when they are at war with someone else) around the world are looking down on us, do you think this coming generation can pull off a hat trick?
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Re: Obama's 1st Major Mistake

PostBy: mikeandgerry On: Sat Jan 24, 2009 12:15 am

kootch88 wrote:Torture is wrong, at least from our agreeing to the Geneva Convention. We signed on to the Geneva convention long ago. If we believe it is a crock of *censored* then we should have rejected it, period. All I am saying is McCain believes it is torture and so did a lot of others who have used it, including our country. Obama thinks it is torture, McCain thinks it is torture and I believe it is torture. The press doesn't drag my mind around like a dog on a leash. Some of the information out there I reject, some I accept, just like opinions stated on this site.

Closing Gitmo may be a mistake, but it has helped a larger international perception that this country is no longer the great moral light we once were. Because of this perception, I think it had to be closed. We do not live in an isolated world and like it or not, international perception does matter. It also impacts our international relations.


I agree that torture is wrong. I haven't been presented with any evidence that the US tortured anyone. We just have accusations. No facts. I would find it difficult to believe that extended waterboarding was used at all let alone widely.

When guys like McCain are asked by the press, the press generalizes. The press is very skilled at making people look and sound stupid or culpable or contrite or nuts. They have the control over the information dissemination. Since they are in bed with the left, who hated everything GWB did, solely because he won by Supreme Court decision, they have set an agenda for the destruction of the right. Make no mistake; It is a scorched earth policy. They don't care about anything else, certainly not the truth. I don't believe a word they utter without verification.

You are correct that perception is the key to control. But you must consider who creates the perceptions and who controls that perception....the press. Other nations, including the UK, have historically used more heinous measures than the US ever dreamed of. You will never hear about such things in the UK because there is NO FREE PRESS THERE. The government runs the works. They can declare torture a heinous crime never committed by the Brits and turn around and beat the snot out of the Northern Irish. But you won't hear much about that or the Geneva Convention because the govt ultimately controls the news cycle.
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Re: Obama's 1st Major Mistake

PostBy: kootch88 On: Sat Jan 24, 2009 12:16 am

Wood, I know you don't but McCain does or did anyway, and I respect his opinion on this particular subject above yours or mine because he knows what torture really is. I don't think we can discount his opinion on this one. 9/11 was horrific, I think only a few radicals will disagree with that. But that does not justify acting outside the law. The Geneva convention considers it torture, and it doesn't say a few seconds is okay, but 10 is too long or 20 or 60. Should we recognize it or not?
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Re: Obama's 1st Major Mistake

PostBy: Wood'nCoal On: Sat Jan 24, 2009 12:34 am

I think Coaledsweat stated my feelings very well:

I wasn't aware that Al Quida had signed the Geneva Convention, if they didn't, why would you afford them it's benefits? Isn't it an agreement between participants? People think that war has to be a neat tidy thing that you can tell your grandchildren about. War is something you need to win if you want to talk to your grandchildren.
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