Obama's 1st Major Mistake

Re: Obama's 1st Major Mistake

PostBy: coalkirk On: Sat Jan 24, 2009 10:45 am

Very well said Lisa! I live pretty close to DC also and know folks who work at the DOD and NSA. For the most part they are very tight lipped about their work. But I have gleaned enough to know we have dodged many "bullets" here since 9/11. I hope someday soon, some of it will be declassified so that all may know what the intell gathered at places like gitmo and thorugh the wire taps permitted under the patriot act have meant to the security of our homeland.
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Re: Obama's 1st Major Mistake

PostBy: OldAA130 On: Sat Jan 24, 2009 10:46 am

mikeandgerry wrote: The press manipulated public sentiment. The press is the problem. They are doing your thinking for you.


Unfortunately, I don't agree with this statement. This is the problem with the American public. They can be led by the hand into any line of thinking the press wants them to. The American public has lost it's sense and smell for truth. They (generally speeking) believe anything they hear on the nightly news no matter how twisted and untrue it is.

I remember after 9/11 the thing that changed in me most was that I constantly needed to listen to the news... all the time. I could no longer listen to music in my car as I drove, it just didnt' seem appropriate for me anymore. Then one day that changed. I was listening to NPR and they were reporting on a story about a gun battle in Isreal. I noticed that throughout the entire story, there was the sound of a child crying in the background. Of course the NPR correspondent had nothing good to say about Isreal and seemed to focus on the tragedy of their enemy. So for those Americans who give these news folks way more credibility then they deserve, the story was slanted pretty steep to one side.

There's no truth in the news anymore. News media have become worse than politicians... they lie to suit their own agenda. Twist the truth and Obama will set you free! The American public can't handle the truth. That's why the government is taking control of everything! If you were told the truth by your politicians then you wouldn't vote for them.
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Re: Obama's 1st Major Mistake

PostBy: Devil505 On: Sat Jan 24, 2009 10:51 am

coalkirk wrote:I think your last statements sum up the differences in how we view the world. 9/11 wasn't a crime. A crime is robbery, rape, kidnaping. This was an act of war.


I think we have isolated the basis of the dilemma that is dividing our country:

1. Those who believe that 9/11 was a criminal act. (however vile & huge)

AND

2. Those who believe it fits he definition of "Act of War" & thus can effectively be handled by using the "Meat Axe" approach which armies & navies are limited to, in their capability.

I feel it was a crime & best handled by a "Police" type response. (scalpel...to remove the criminal threat)

Simply a difference of opinion, but one with major ramifications to the world.
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Re: Obama's 1st Major Mistake

PostBy: Wood'nCoal On: Sat Jan 24, 2009 10:55 am

Terry and Lisa your statements were perfect and summed it all up for me.

Anyone who disagrees can go on living in their fantasy world and believe if we are kind and understanding to our enemies then they won't want to kill us anymore. Take a good long look at the way of life you have and picture it all gone. You can't fight a fire with a water pistol.
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Re: Obama's 1st Major Mistake

PostBy: Devil505 On: Sat Jan 24, 2009 11:02 am

Wood'nCoal wrote:Take a good long look at the way of life you have and picture it all gone. You can't fight a fire with a water pistol.


True John, but you also don't fight a small house fire by blowing the house up with 100 lbs of C4!
(granted.....the C4 will put out the fire, but you destroy your house in the process!) ;)

We've been using C4 for 7 years now....Time to get out the real fire hoses & fight the fire professionally.
Last edited by Devil505 on Sat Jan 24, 2009 11:03 am, edited 1 time in total.
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Re: Obama's 1st Major Mistake

PostBy: coalkirk On: Sat Jan 24, 2009 11:02 am

Devil505 wrote:
coalkirk wrote:Here's what our enemy does to it's captured. I'll take a mock drowning (water boarding)please! Be sure to scroll through all 12 pages.


We are better than they are Terry...It's that simple.


This will be little consulation when we are dead. It reminds me of how offended the British were during the Revolutionary war that we didn't line up in columns like they did to take their musket fire. We were hiding and shooting from behind the trees because common sense called for it. They were appalled. Oh, and if anyone doesn't recall, they lost. ;)
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Re: Obama's 1st Major Mistake

PostBy: ErikLaurence On: Sat Jan 24, 2009 11:04 am

You need to look at the goals of 9/11 to understand why we have not been hit here again. The goal was not to take down the towers or destroy the pentagon, the goal was not to kill people. Those were all tangential effects. The goal of 9/11 was to elicit a response from the US. To get America to over-react and do something stupid. We did that in Iraq. Their mission met it's goal and they didn't need to follow up.

What was the goal of the shoe bomber?

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What was the goal of the "liquid" bombers? Sorry, there was no way they would have successfully mixed binary liquid explosives in a aircraft restroom. You need brined ice baths, it's difficult work that takes time. Why bother? Especially because you can carry all the components of thermite (powdered aluminum and powdered iron) right through security to this day.

The goal of terrorism is the reaction, not the immediate effects.
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Re: Obama's 1st Major Mistake

PostBy: Devil505 On: Sat Jan 24, 2009 11:05 am

coalkirk wrote:This will be little consulation when we are dead. It reminds me of how offended the British were during the Revolutionary war that we didn't line up in columns like they did to take their musket fire.


I'm not a believer in "The ends justifies the means"
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Re: Obama's 1st Major Mistake

PostBy: coalkirk On: Sat Jan 24, 2009 11:10 am

I respect your principals and hope that's not your epitaph on your tombstone. :o
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Re: Obama's 1st Major Mistake

PostBy: Devil505 On: Sat Jan 24, 2009 11:20 am

coalkirk wrote:I respect your principals and hope that's not your epitaph on your tombstone. :o


My kids already have my epitaph spelled out: " He Loved Chinese Food" :lol:
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Re: Obama's 1st Major Mistake

PostBy: Devil505 On: Sat Jan 24, 2009 11:22 am

ErikLaurence wrote:The goal of terrorism is the reaction, not the immediate effects.


Now there's a mouthful!!! :up: :clap: :devil:
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Re: Obama's 1st Major Mistake

PostBy: coalkirk On: Sat Jan 24, 2009 11:23 am

That's cool. I just hope you don't have to eat it in a chinese prison on the outskirts of Boston. :shock:
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Re: Obama's 1st Major Mistake

PostBy: Devil505 On: Sat Jan 24, 2009 11:24 am

coalkirk wrote:That's cool. I just hope you don't have to eat it in a chinese prison on the outskirts of Boston. :shock:



:lol: :lol: Touche!
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Re: Obama's 1st Major Mistake

PostBy: Dann757 On: Sat Jan 24, 2009 11:39 am

Well this discussion is more heated than the air above my coal stove. I'm right of center, have lost contact with left wing friends and family whose eyes are still glazed over.

I have ants here invading my little country. It wasn't a crime, it's an act of war. If I take no action or consider their rights, they will destroy my homeland. I don't torture them. I summarily execute them. I've got a pump sprayer (military), ammunition (a gallon of bug juice), a plan (I'm the Commander in Chief). I'll be drilling holes in the walls today and injecting the juice into the wall cavities where I think they are. ( I'm also the Intelligence Chief) It's a scorched wall cavity policy.
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Re: Obama's 1st Major Mistake

PostBy: stockingfull On: Sat Jan 24, 2009 12:30 pm

58 posts in half a day? Is that a record?

Clinically speaking, the problem with "terrorism" is that it differs from both the criminal law and "traditional" war in that (a) the offender isn't apologetic (like war, unlike crim), (b) we don't have control over the offender when not in our custody (like war, unlike crim), and (c) the offender is not acting on behalf of a "state" with which we're "at war," so there's little possibility that a military "victory" can end it (like crim, unlike war).

So the situation doesn't fit either model, hence the difficulty in addressing it.

The classic purposes of the penal law are deterrence, incapacitation, retribution and rehabilitation. The existence of defined offenses and penalties are meant to deter the undesirable conduct, the offenders are incapable of further criminal acts when they're confined, society gains a measure of satisfaction by the imposition of the penal sanctions, and the offenders are (theoretically) given therapy and/or vocational training while away to make recidivism less likely. Parole is controlled release during which the effectiveness of deterrence and rehabilitation can be evaluated.

And neither do the classic military tactics of using overwhelming force to obtain a military victory in the shortest possible time fit the circumstances, where an "enemy" is as or more amorphous as the Viet Cong. What meaningful "surrender" can we possibly obtain from the "enemy" where there is a quite plausible argument that our current devices for "incapacitation" and "retribution," like Gitmo, actually create negative deterrence, that is, they aid in terrorist recruiting rather than deterring terrorists. Put another way, we know that Al Quaeda loved the Iraq invasion, and loves Gitmo, because they play perfectly into their "David and Goliath" sales pitch. And I firmly believe, as others here have noted, that their main purpose is precisely to keep sticking their fingers into our eyes in the effort to provoke disproportional responses and get us into the same endless cycle of killing innocent people, and endless motivation to keep doing so, that now festers in the "Israeli" mideast.

To me, it is perfectly legitimate response to let the rest of the world know that, no matter how much harder it may be, we will never abandon our principles of applying the rule of law to the situation. That means capturing or killing people on the battlefield, not torturing anybody, promptly trying those against whom we have evidence of criminal activity and allowing international inspection of every place where we hold such people.

Benjamin Franklin himself famously wrote, in 1759, that, "Those who would give up essential liberty to purchase a little temporary safety deserve neither liberty nor safety." I don't accept for a minute the assertion that we haven't suffered, both among the worlds multi-Billion person Muslim population or even among our friends in the more "conventional" community of nations, far more than any possible benefit we've derived, not only from Gitmo but also from the passage and subsequent abuse of the so-called "USA Patriot Act." Both are abominations that defile the creed of liberty and due process of law that we as a nation were founded upon.

In the long run, we don't help our position by abandoning our principles. We help our position by sticking to them.
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