Obama's 1st Major Mistake

Re: Obama's 1st Major Mistake

PostBy: Devil505 On: Sat Jan 24, 2009 9:59 pm

steveyrock wrote:Devil
yes she is the same one and isn't wonderfull that she helped bring a country controlled by savages and murders toward democracy.



Not at the cost of over 4,000 U.S. servicemen & a trillion dollars that has bankrupted our country....No.



jpete wrote:The moral of the story is, the USA doesn't have any business dictating who controls what country. And when we try, it more often than not, bites us in the *ss.


We finally agree on something! :cheers:
Devil505
 
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Re: Obama's 1st Major Mistake

PostBy: mikeandgerry On: Sat Jan 24, 2009 10:01 pm

Devil505 wrote:I think we have isolated the basis of the dilemma that is dividing our country:

1. Those who believe that 9/11 was a criminal act. (however vile & huge)

AND

2. Those who believe it fits he definition of "Act of War" & thus can effectively be handled by using the "Meat Axe" approach which armies & navies are limited to, in their capability.

I feel it was a crime & best handled by a "Police" type response. (scalpel...to remove the criminal threat)

Simply a difference of opinion, but one with major ramifications to the world.


Sorry, devil, but you should know, having been in law enforcement yourself, that criminals don't plan to die in the "job" and that they ultimately expect a payoff of some sort also. These men were motivated by ideology and ideology ONLY. They died for a cause. Criminals are too self-centered to be suicide bombers for a religious cause.

There is no comparison between 9/11 and a crime....PERIOD.
mikeandgerry
 
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Re: Obama's 1st Major Mistake

PostBy: mikeandgerry On: Sat Jan 24, 2009 10:07 pm

ErikLaurence wrote:The goal of terrorism is the reaction, not the immediate effects.


The Israelis are a bit more versed with terrorism. You'd be hard pressed to convince the Israeli people that they should just sit around in their homes waiting for the next rocket attack...

"Gee, what was that noise, honey? It sounded like a rocket explosion. Anyway, what's for dinner?"


Don't react? Yeah, right.
mikeandgerry
 
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Re: Obama's 1st Major Mistake

PostBy: Devil505 On: Sat Jan 24, 2009 10:11 pm

mikeandgerry wrote:Sorry, devil, but you should know, having been in law enforcement yourself, that criminals don't plan to die in the "job" and that they ultimately expect a payoff of some sort also.




From Wikipedia: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Columbine_ ... l_massacre


Columbine High School massacre
From Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia
Jump to: navigation, search
Semi-protected
Columbine High School massacre

Staff and students evacuate Columbine
High School during the shooting.
Location Columbine, Colorado, USA
Date April 20, 1999
11:19 am – 12:08 pm (UTC-6)
Attack type School shooting, mass murder, massacre, murder-suicide, suicide attack, improvised explosives
Weapon(s) Intratec TEC-DC9, Hi-Point 995 Carbine, Savage 67H pump-action shotgun, Stevens 311D double barreled sawed-off shotgun
Deaths 15 (including the 2 perpetrators)
Injured 24
Perpetrator(s) Eric Harris and Dylan Klebold

The Columbine High School massacre occurred on Tuesday, April 20, 1999, at Columbine High School in Columbine in unincorporated Jefferson County, Colorado, United States, near Denver and Littleton. Two students, Eric Harris and Dylan Klebold, embarked on a massacre, killing 12 students and a teacher, as well as wounding 23 others, before committing suicide (my emphasis)


Was this an act of war then?
(if so, where do we send our army?)
Devil505
 
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Re: Obama's 1st Major Mistake

PostBy: mikeandgerry On: Sat Jan 24, 2009 10:29 pm

stockingfull wrote:
In the long run, we don't help our position by abandoning our principles. We help our position by sticking to them.


I actually agree with most of your thoughtful analysis however I cannot agree that we abandoned any of our principles. No citizen was denied any rights nor combatant tortured in a cruel manner. It is the unreasonable and ever expanding definition of rights promulgated by the left in the last 40 years that give that false impression. Torture and the denial of rights are debatable public arguments of degrees that play into the hands of AQ. Just as someone suggested, it is the response that AQ craves. Their desire is to incite emotion and domestic havoc. Yes, they have succeeded. In response, we have succeeded in stopping them. Our only failure is the silly debate among ourselves about abandoning our principles.

Usually children who "act out", which is the best comparison to AQ behavior, are dealt with by not acknowledging them or enticing them to behave in positive ways through positive reinforcement, or through denial of desirable privileges. All that is tough to do when you are dealing with adults who are intelligent, ideologically motivated, educated, financed, non-affiliated with any single nation, and armed to the teeth. It is also difficult to accomplish any denial of privileges when your own people are arguing about the denial of the combatant's "rights" despite their criminal, combatant, non-citizen status. AQ is certainly laughing their butts off at that silliness.

We went down the only road that had a chance of success. Now we are abandoning that relative success for some liberal experimentation.
Last edited by mikeandgerry on Sat Jan 24, 2009 10:37 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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Re: Obama's 1st Major Mistake

PostBy: mikeandgerry On: Sat Jan 24, 2009 10:34 pm

Devil505 wrote:[
The Columbine High School massacre occurred on Tuesday, April 20, 1999, at Columbine High School in Columbine in unincorporated Jefferson County, Colorado, United States, near Denver and Littleton. Two students, Eric Harris and Dylan Klebold, embarked on a massacre, killing 12 students and a teacher, as well as wounding 23 others, before committing suicide (my emphasis)


Was this an act of war then?
(if so, where do we send our army?)


The "payoff" need not be monetary. Their motivation was revenge, not ideology. Killing their teachers and the students enabled revenge on the system they erroneously felt excluded them. Suicide enabled them to take revenge on their parents.

Tell me devil, had Harris and Klebold been stopped would they have been incarcerated or put in an institution for the mentally ill?

Where would you put AQ combatants?
Last edited by mikeandgerry on Sat Jan 24, 2009 10:45 pm, edited 2 times in total.
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Re: Obama's 1st Major Mistake

PostBy: Dann757 On: Sat Jan 24, 2009 10:37 pm

"There is no comparison between 9/11 and a crime....PERIOD.

Mikeandgerry,

I agree, thanks. I saw it with my own eyes. I think Pearl Harbor was an act of war too.
Dann757
 

Re: Obama's 1st Major Mistake

PostBy: Devil505 On: Sat Jan 24, 2009 10:47 pm

mikeandgerry wrote:I cannot agree that we abandoned any of our principles. No citizen was denied any rights nor combatant tortured in a cruel manner.


You can keep repeating that as many times as you want.....Repeating an incorrect statement does not ever make it correct. You are plainly wrong on both counts.


mikeandgerry wrote:The "payoff" need not be monetary. Their motivation was revenge, not ideology.


So was it a crime or an act of war or what??? (who was called in to handle the situation?....Answer: The police, NOT the army)

crime - Definition
[krīm]
(n.) An act committed or omitted in violation of a law forbidding or…
(n.) Unlawful activity: statistics relating to violent crime.
(n.) A serious offense, especially one in violation of morality.
Dictionary.com · The American Heritage® Dictionary


War-Definition:Legal Definition of War
The Legal Term * War * Defined & Explained National war is a contest between two or more independent nations) carried on by authority of their respective governments. National wars are said to be offensive or defensive. War is offensive on the part of that government which commits the first act of violence;


Columbine & 9/11 were both CRIMES
(only their magnitudes were different. They may fit the definition of "Crimes of Passion", but crimes none-the-less, requiring a "police" type reaction)
Last edited by Devil505 on Sat Jan 24, 2009 11:29 pm, edited 3 times in total.
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Re: Obama's 1st Major Mistake

PostBy: Dann757 On: Sat Jan 24, 2009 11:18 pm

"There is a disturbing phenomenon creeping into the public debate about all things 9/11. Increasingly, Sept. 11 is compared to hurricanes, bridge collapses and other mechanical disasters or criminal acts that result in loss of life, with "body count" being the primary factor that keeps it in the top spot of "worst in the nation's history."
Misremembering is as dangerous as forgetting. If we must know one thing, it is that the Sept. 11 attacks were neither a natural disaster, nor the unfortunate result of human error. 9/11 wasn't the catastrophic equivalent of a 3,000-car pileup.
The attacks were not a random act of violence or insanity. They were a deliberate and brutal act of war committed by religious fanatics engaged in Islamic jihad against the United States, all non-Muslim people and any Muslim who wishes to live in a secular society. Worse, the people who perpetrated the attacks have explicitly told us that they are not done."

(From an article by Debra Burlingame- 9/11/07)


Debra Burlingame is the sister of Capt. Charles F. (Chic) Burlingame 3rd, pilot of American Airlines Flight 77, which crashed into the Pentagon on 9/11.
Dann757
 

Re: Obama's 1st Major Mistake

PostBy: jpete On: Sat Jan 24, 2009 11:31 pm

mikeandgerry wrote:
stockingfull wrote:
In the long run, we don't help our position by abandoning our principles. We help our position by sticking to them.


I actually agree with most of your thoughtful analysis however I cannot agree that we abandoned any of our principles. No citizen was denied any rights nor combatant tortured in a cruel manner. It is the unreasonable and ever expanding definition of rights promulgated by the left in the last 40 years that give that false impression. Torture and the denial of rights are debatable public arguments of degrees that play into the hands of AQ. Just as someone suggested, it is the response that AQ craves. Their desire is to incite emotion and domestic havoc. Yes, they have succeeded. In response, we have succeeded in stopping them. Our only failure is the silly debate among ourselves about abandoning our principles.

Usually children who "act out", which is the best comparison to AQ behavior, are dealt with by not acknowledging them or enticing them to behave in positive ways through positive reinforcement, or through denial of desirable privileges. All that is tough to do when you are dealing with adults who are intelligent, ideologically motivated, educated, financed, non-affiliated with any single nation, and armed to the teeth. It is also difficult to accomplish any denial of privileges when your own people are arguing about the denial of the combatant's "rights" despite their criminal, combatant, non-citizen status. AQ is certainly laughing their butts off at that silliness.

We went down the only road that had a chance of success. Now we are abandoning that relative success for some liberal experimentation.


How do people still get this so wrong? Really, I can't understand it with all the information out there.

No citizen were denied rights
?!?!?!?!?!?!

What do you call the PATRIOT Act, the Military Commissions Act, and Homegrown Terrorist and Violent Radicalization Act?

In response, we have succeeded in stopping them
?!?!?!?!

Really? They killed 3000 Americans and now over 4000 more? That's stopping them? What stops them from walking across our unsecured borders? I love this line of argument. Tell you what, I have a magic rock in my front yard that the garden gnomes left me. It repels grizzly bears. I know it works because there are no grizzly bears in my front yard.

Remember this, "causation does not suggest correlation". Just because one thing happens after another, doesn't mean the first thing caused the second. GWB ramming through the PATRIOT Act didn't "make us safer".
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Re: Obama's 1st Major Mistake

PostBy: mikeandgerry On: Sun Jan 25, 2009 2:10 am

Devil505 wrote:Columbine & 9/11 were both CRIMES[/size] (only their magnitudes were different. They may fit the definition of "Crimes of Passion", but crimes none-the-less, requiring a "police" type reaction)


Apparently, size matters in a "crime of passion".

Use whatever semantics you care to obsess over, the police and the FBI don't have the capacity, resources, firepower, training, or jurisdiction to do battle with these "criminals" of gargantuan proportion off US turf which is where they need to be fought to prevent further "jobs" inside the US.
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Re: Obama's 1st Major Mistake

PostBy: mikeandgerry On: Sun Jan 25, 2009 2:18 am

jpete wrote:How do people still get this so wrong? Really, I can't understand it with all the information out there.

What do you call the PATRIOT Act, the Military Commissions Act, and Homegrown Terrorist and Violent Radicalization Act?

That's stopping them? What stops them from walking across our unsecured borders?

Remember this, "causation does not suggest correlation". Just because one thing happens after another, doesn't mean the first thing caused the second. GWB ramming through the PATRIOT Act didn't "make us safer".



Information from the mainstream press is disinformation.

Those laws you cited protected citizens at the expense of foreigners. They are wartime compromises not unlike other wartime compromises.

There have been no terrorist attacks on US soil since 9-11.

What IS stopping the securing of our borders? Both Democrats and Republicans.

Democrats AND Republicans signed the authorization for war, the legislation cited, and the border security acts. Be sure to tell your congressman and senators your displeasure with the LAW.
mikeandgerry
 
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Re: Obama's 1st Major Mistake

PostBy: mikeandgerry On: Sun Jan 25, 2009 2:25 am

Dann757 wrote:"The attacks were not a random act of violence or insanity. They were a deliberate and brutal act of war committed by religious fanatics engaged in Islamic jihad against the United States, all non-Muslim people and any Muslim who wishes to live in a secular society. Worse, the people who perpetrated the attacks have explicitly told us that they are not done."

(From an article by Debra Burlingame- 9/11/07)


Debra Burlingame is the sister of Capt. Charles F. (Chic) Burlingame 3rd, pilot of American Airlines Flight 77, which crashed into the Pentagon on 9/11.




An excellent reminder to us all. Thank you.
mikeandgerry
 
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Re: Obama's 1st Major Mistake

PostBy: Jeddbird On: Sun Jan 25, 2009 9:04 am

I'm a pretty new member here & I compliment you all on a great discussion here. I'llad my 2 cents for what it's worth.

If the terrible attacks of 9/11 were acts of war, what country can we rightfully attack since almost all of the attackers were Saudi Arabians?
As pointed out by someone above, was the Columbine massacre also an act of war, best dealt ith by the army?
Regarding 9/11, I think we American let our anger & emotions overwhelm us & simply lashed out at convdenident targets to make us feel better.
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Re: Obama's 1st Major Mistake

PostBy: jjmason On: Sun Jan 25, 2009 10:01 am

Jeddbird wrote:I'm a pretty new member here & I compliment you all on a great discussion here. I'llad my 2 cents for what it's worth.

If the terrible attacks of 9/11 were acts of war, what country can we rightfully attack since almost all of the attackers were Saudi Arabians?
As pointed out by someone above, was the Columbine massacre also an act of war, best dealt ith by the army?
Regarding 9/11, I think we American let our anger & emotions overwhelm us & simply lashed out at convdenident targets to make us feel better.

"Convenient" target....I don't know? But I did feel whole lot better when the Taliban, which harbored Al Qaida, was run out of Afghanistan. I felt better when many of these a**holes were killed or captured. And I feel pretty good that there wasn't another attack here in the US. I'm beginning to feel a little worse since Tues. though....
jjmason
 
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