Obama's 1st Major Mistake

Re: Obama's 1st Major Mistake

PostBy: coalkirk On: Sun Jan 25, 2009 10:20 am

This type of action is fairly unique and can't be defined by a dictionary definition of war or crime. In this case a radical element of a religion, actively supported by millions and tacitly supported by billions attacked us. It doesn't fit either defintion exactly but no one will convince me that the attacks were simply a crime. It's obvious we are all not going to agree. I know! Let's wait for the next "event" and maybe we can all decide then which defintion it fits best. One thing for sure, they'll be fewer to debate it. :shock:
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Re: Obama's 1st Major Mistake

PostBy: Devil505 On: Sun Jan 25, 2009 10:59 am

coalkirk wrote:This type of action is fairly unique and can't be defined by a dictionary definition of war or crime. In this case a radical element of a religion, actively supported by millions and tacitly supported by billions attacked us. It doesn't fit either defintion exactly but no one will convince me that the attacks were simply a crime.


I think you hit the nail on the head Terry! :clap:

9/11 was to big an event to call a "Crime" in the old, standard sense, (to be handled by normal "Police" type forces including the FBI)...yet it was not perpetrated by a "Nation" which our armed forces were designed & trained to fight & defeat on a normal battlefield. I think this is where our new President should use his great intellect & design/implement an American quasi Military/Police type force specificity created & trained to fight this new type of threat against our country & the world. It would have to be large enough to fight conventional enemy forces (including light mechanized forces) but compact enough to be able to react quickly & deploy anywhere in the world on a moment's notice. It would also have to be exempt from the "Posse Comitatus" laws so that it would have jurisdiction within our country as well as overseas..


http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Posse_Comitatus_Act

The Posse Comitatus Act is a United States federal law (18 U.S.C. § 1385) passed on June 16, 1878 after the end of Reconstruction, with the intention (in concert with the Insurrection Act of 1807) of substantially limiting the powers of the federal government to use the military for law enforcement. The Act prohibits most members of the federal uniformed services (today the Army, Air Force, and State National Guard forces when such are called into federal service) from exercising nominally state law enforcement, police, or peace officer powers that maintain "law and order" on non-federal property (states and their counties and municipal divisions) in the former Confederate states.
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Re: Obama's 1st Major Mistake

PostBy: jpete On: Sun Jan 25, 2009 11:41 am

mikeandgerry wrote:
jpete wrote:How do people still get this so wrong? Really, I can't understand it with all the information out there.

What do you call the PATRIOT Act, the Military Commissions Act, and Homegrown Terrorist and Violent Radicalization Act?

That's stopping them? What stops them from walking across our unsecured borders?

Remember this, "causation does not suggest correlation". Just because one thing happens after another, doesn't mean the first thing caused the second. GWB ramming through the PATRIOT Act didn't "make us safer".



mikeandgerry wrote: Information from the mainstream press is disinformation.


I don't get my information from the "MSM".

mikeandgerry wrote: Those laws you cited protected citizens at the expense of foreigners. They are wartime compromises not unlike other wartime compromises.


They who can give up essential liberty to obtain a little temporary safety, deserve neither liberty nor safety. -Benjamin Franklin

The PATRIOT Act took away many of our "unalienable rights" whether you know it or not. Just because nothing happen to you yet, doesn't mean it can't.

mikeandgerry wrote: There have been no terrorist attacks on US soil since 9-11.


I'll say it again. "Causation does not suggest correlation". Just because one thing happens after another, doesn't mean the first thing caused the second. GWB ramming through the PATRIOT Act didn't "make us safer"

mikeandgerry wrote: What IS stopping the securing of our borders? Both Democrats and Republicans.

Democrats AND Republicans signed the authorization for war, the legislation cited, and the border security acts. Be sure to tell your congressman and senators your displeasure with the LAW.


There was an "authorization to use force" not a "declaration of war". They are two different things. The PATRIOT Act was a bait and switch, the bailout bill was unconstitutional, and I can assure you, my Congressional delegation knows how I feel.
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Re: Obama's 1st Major Mistake

PostBy: jpete On: Sun Jan 25, 2009 11:44 am

Devil505 wrote:
coalkirk wrote:This type of action is fairly unique and can't be defined by a dictionary definition of war or crime. In this case a radical element of a religion, actively supported by millions and tacitly supported by billions attacked us. It doesn't fit either defintion exactly but no one will convince me that the attacks were simply a crime.


I think you hit the nail on the head Terry! :clap:

9/11 was to big an event to call a "Crime" in the old, standard sense, (to be handled by normal "Police" type forces including the FBI)...yet it was not perpetrated by a "Nation" which our armed forces were designed & trained to fight & defeat on a normal battlefield. I think this is where our new President should use his great intellect & design/implement an American quasi Military/Police type force specificity created & trained to fight this new type of threat against our country & the world. It would have to be large enough to fight conventional enemy forces (including light mechanized forces) but compact enough to be able to react quickly & deploy anywhere in the world on a moment's notice. It would also have to be exempt from the "Posse Comitatus" laws so that it would have jurisdiction within our country as well as overseas..


http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Posse_Comitatus_Act

The Posse Comitatus Act is a United States federal law (18 U.S.C. § 1385) passed on June 16, 1878 after the end of Reconstruction, with the intention (in concert with the Insurrection Act of 1807) of substantially limiting the powers of the federal government to use the military for law enforcement. The Act prohibits most members of the federal uniformed services (today the Army, Air Force, and State National Guard forces when such are called into federal service) from exercising nominally state law enforcement, police, or peace officer powers that maintain "law and order" on non-federal property (states and their counties and municipal divisions) in the former Confederate states.


Why would you want to do away with something that protects the US citizens when something perfectly Constitutional exists to do the same thing?

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Letter_of_marque

A letter of marque is an official warrant or commission from a government authorizing the designated agent to search, seize, or destroy specified assets or personnel belonging to a foreign party which has committed some offense under the laws of nations against the assets or citizens of the issuing nation, and has usually been used to authorize private parties to raid and capture merchant shipping of an enemy nation.


Too many people are too happy to give up their rights.
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Re: Obama's 1st Major Mistake

PostBy: Devil505 On: Sun Jan 25, 2009 12:23 pm

jpete wrote:Why would you want to do away with something that protects the US citizens when something perfectly Constitutional exists to do the same thing?

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Letter_of_marque


While I think we share the same spirit of doing something effective against terrorists, wherever we find them, I think the "Letter_of_marque" would be too limiting in it's scope..

....."search, seize, or destroy specified assets or personnel belonging to a foreign party which has committed some offense under the laws of nations against the assets or citizens of the issuing nation,"....

Suppose some of the terrorist are U.S. citizens? They would fall outside the jurisdiction of a "Letter_of_marque" since they were not foreign.

I actually think that combining the best of the FBI's HRT (Hostage Rescue Team) & Delta Force personnel would provide a ready-made, already existing cadre for such a new quasi Police/Military force which obviously would be bound by all the existing Constitutional restrictions & laws that already protect us as citizens.
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Re: Obama's 1st Major Mistake

PostBy: KLook On: Sun Jan 25, 2009 12:57 pm

Holy cow! You want to creat a Gestapo! I am worried about your obvious worship of The presidents intelligence and intentions. Go back and study Hitler for some context.

Kevin
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Re: Obama's 1st Major Mistake

PostBy: LeonMSPT On: Sun Jan 25, 2009 1:04 pm

Had someone tell me the other day, "Obama gives me hope. What about you?"

I said, "He makes me hope... "

I hope he's right. I fear he's not, on a number of issues.

First thing I'd seriously like the hear is an explanation of the logic that says,

"The second amendment enshrines and individual right to keep and bear arms.", and "bans on guns are acceptable, and do not violate the spirit or intentions of the second amendment."

I get a headache trying to figure that out.

I am also not too confused about GITMO. Turn them all loose and see what happens. Send them back to their countries of origin... if their governments will let them back into their own country. My guess is the welcome mat will be yanked right out from under them.

What to do?
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Re: Obama's 1st Major Mistake

PostBy: Devil505 On: Sun Jan 25, 2009 2:03 pm

KLook wrote:Holy cow! You want to creat a Gestapo! I am worried about your obvious worship of The presidents intelligence and intentions. Go back and study Hitler for some context.

Kevin



From above:

Devil505 wrote:a new quasi Police/Military force which obviously would be bound by all the existing Constitutional restrictions & laws that already protect us as citizens.
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Re: Obama's 1st Major Mistake

PostBy: KLook On: Sun Jan 25, 2009 2:08 pm

Answerable to Who? We already bicker about the forces we have without creating another and then handcuffing them with feel good rules.
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Re: Obama's 1st Major Mistake

PostBy: jpete On: Sun Jan 25, 2009 2:45 pm

Devil505 wrote:
KLook wrote:Holy cow! You want to creat a Gestapo! I am worried about your obvious worship of The presidents intelligence and intentions. Go back and study Hitler for some context.

Kevin



From above:

Devil505 wrote:a new quasi Police/Military force which obviously would be bound by all the existing Constitutional restrictions & laws that already protect us as citizens.


Again Devil.

If they are US citizens, then the existing police(FBI, state, etc) can handle it. No need have the military act like police. Your average grunt didn't take classes in Constitution law like a law enforcement officer does. I'm not much of a Rush Limbaugh fan, but I have to agree with him when he says "The military's job is to kill people and break things."

That's not a group of people I want trying to act like police.
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Re: Obama's 1st Major Mistake

PostBy: OldAA130 On: Mon Jan 26, 2009 7:36 pm

Devil505 wrote:
It would have to be large enough to fight conventional enemy forces (including light mechanized forces) but compact enough to be able to react quickly & deploy anywhere in the world on a moment's notice. It would also have to be exempt from the "Posse Comitatus" laws so that it would have jurisdiction within our country as well as overseas..


Have you ever heard of the Green Berets?

This debate is making me dizzy :confused: :confused: :confused:

So Devil, lay out what your response would've been after 9/11 since Bush did such a bad job. I suppose you would've made a big scene in front of all the school children after throwing the book across the room.

I'm guessing you would've tried to "talk" to them (whoever they are...). Why can't we all just get along???? Terrorists and capitalists alike???? Let's hold hands and sing kumbaya...

Reagan didn't defeat the Soviets by being a big weanie like some on this forum suggest we should do now. You want to see the opposite of this example???? Take a look at many European countries (i like to call em euroweanies because they are weanies). They are losing their identity... their countries... the radical muslims are moving in and taking over! Is this what you want for America?

I suggest that folks like you Devil cannot be debated with. You see one news story by Tom Lockjaw or the Clinton New Network and you are sold. I don't even trust FoxNews anymore. There are no good sources of FACTUAL news out there anymore. All I know is that soldiers are trained to fight wars... my children aren't. I know many "over there" fighting and I understand that they believe in the mission. Stop pledging alliegence to the news media and pledge alliegence to your country. But then again, I'm sure you will debate these points as well...

Tom
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Re: Obama's 1st Major Mistake

PostBy: OldAA130 On: Mon Jan 26, 2009 7:38 pm

Oh, and let all the terrorist go free. kill em when they reach the battlefield. :rambo3:
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Re: Obama's 1st Major Mistake

PostBy: gerard On: Mon Jan 26, 2009 7:49 pm

Devil505 wrote:
coalkirk wrote:9/11 was to big an event to call a "Crime" in the old, standard sense, (to be handled by normal "Police" type forces including the FBI)...yet it was not perpetrated by a "Nation" which our armed forces were designed & trained to fight & defeat on a normal battlefield. I think this is where our new President should use his great intellect & design/implement an American quasi Military/Police type force specificity created & trained to fight this new type of threat against our country & the world. It would have to be large enough to fight conventional enemy forces (including light mechanized forces) but compact enough to be able to react quickly & deploy anywhere in the world on a moment's notice. It would also have to be exempt from the "Posse Comitatus" laws so that it would have jurisdiction within our country as well as overseas..


Now I know I've bee reading this thread for too long - I agree with Devil505 on something!!!! :up: :up: just when I thought we didn't have any common ground......... Thats also the problem with the people in gitmo and WHY the civil criminal justice system isn't suited to address them.
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Re: Obama's 1st Major Mistake

PostBy: gerard On: Mon Jan 26, 2009 7:56 pm

OldAA130 wrote:Oh, and let all the terrorist go free. kill em when they reach the battlefield. :rambo3:

Works for me. Would it not be sporting to drop them all off in the same place and give the where/when/ coordinates to some special forces guys with smart bombs?? :D
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Re: Obama's 1st Major Mistake

PostBy: Devil505 On: Mon Jan 26, 2009 8:00 pm

OldAA130 wrote:This debate is making me dizzy :confused: :confused: :confused:


That's obvious from your posts! :P :P

OldAA130 wrote:So Devil, lay out what your response would've been after 9/11 since Bush did such a bad job. I suppose you would've made a big scene in front of all the school children after throwing the book across the room.


The only reason Bush finished that book with the kids was..........He was absorbed by the story, the book had pretty pictures & he wanted to know how it ended!! :lol:

OldAA130 wrote:I'm guessing you would've tried to "talk" to them (whoever they are...


No....but I would have tried to find out exactly who attacked us & maybe.....go after them? :secret:


OldAA130 wrote:Reagan didn't defeat the Soviets by being a big weanie like some on this forum suggest we should do now.


Reagan didn't defeat the Soviets at all. ...It was a process that took 35 years & many Presidents. What Reagan did was to cut & run from Beirut, with no response to the Marine Barracks bombing at all.


OldAA130 wrote:I suggest that folks like you Devil cannot be debated with. You see one news story by Tom Lockjaw or the Clinton New Network and you are sold.


I'll be happy to compare how many different news sources I watch, read & listen to ...anytime you want.


OldAA130 wrote:Stop pledging alliegence to the news media and pledge alliegence to your country. But then again, I'm sure you will debate these points as well...


I have raised my right hand & sworn to Protect & defend this country many times, & it wasn't to any news media. How many times have you been sworn in to serve your country?
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