Who Do You Trust?

We already know that no state, and few households, are able to run deficits for long without crashing.

But when will the conservative economists acknowledge that it is precisely the elevated economic activity which a stimulus is intended to promote which is the lynchpin of all of the "supply-side" "trickle-down" "less-gets-you-more" tax-cut theory they've espoused for so long? Put another way, a tax-cut is the same as a stimulus in character: both are a gamble by the gov't that a near-term deficit will eventually generate a healthier, higher-tax-revenue economy.

Except I've yet to hear anybody argue either that tax cuts are faster, or that we can afford to wait right now.

stockingfull wrote:We already know that no state, and few households, are able to run deficits for long without crashing.

But when will the conservative economists acknowledge that it is precisely the elevated economic activity which a stimulus is intended to promote which is the lynchpin of all of the "supply-side" "trickle-down" "less-gets-you-more" tax-cut theory they've espoused for so long? Put another way, a tax-cut is the same as a stimulus in character: both are a gamble by the gov't that a near-term deficit will eventually generate a healthier, higher-tax-revenue economy.

Except I've yet to hear anybody argue either that tax cuts are faster, or that we can afford to wait right now.

I have no faith that the government will cut spending. That is the key.

By your theory, if I borrow a million dollars, I can call myself a millionaire.

We don't have any money in order to stimulate anything. The Treasury is darn near giving treasury bills away. That's all borrowed money. $400+ billion in treasuries this year. And it all has to be paid back with interest. There is no way it's possible.

I trust Sig Sauer..I trust Sturm Ruger....I trust Smith & Wesson.....I trust Samuel Colt...I trust Dan Wesson....I trust John Browning..... I trust Corbon and Speer and Remmington and ..... many others that offer something that has my interest first!

Me, Myself and I.
Cut Taxes and Cut Goverment Bloat!

Hey Poconoeagle, I am with you!!!! I trust my Remington-Winchester and Ruger.

Poconoeagle wrote:I trust Sig Sauer..I trust Sturm Ruger....I trust Smith & Wesson.....I trust Samuel Colt...I trust Dan Wesson....I trust John Browning..... I trust Corbon and Speer and Remmington and ..... many others that offer something that has my interest first!

jpete wrote:

stockingfull wrote:We already know that no state, and few households, are able to run deficits for long without crashing.

But when will the conservative economists acknowledge that it is precisely the elevated economic activity which a stimulus is intended to promote which is the lynchpin of all of the "supply-side" "trickle-down" "less-gets-you-more" tax-cut theory they've espoused for so long? Put another way, a tax-cut is the same as a stimulus in character: both are a gamble by the gov't that a near-term deficit will eventually generate a healthier, higher-tax-revenue economy.

Except I've yet to hear anybody argue either that tax cuts are faster, or that we can afford to wait right now.

I have no faith that the government will cut spending. That is the key.

By your theory, if I borrow a million dollars, I can call myself a millionaire.

We don't have any money in order to stimulate anything. The Treasury is darn near giving treasury bills away. That's all borrowed money. $400+ billion in treasuries this year. And it all has to be paid back with interest. There is no way it's possible.

You've completely ducked the questions: Are tax cuts faster? Can we afford to wait for Chapter 3 of Voodoo Economics to fail?

stockingfull wrote:Tax cuts alone won't do it because it's been proven repeatedly that they don't "stoke" the economy.

And, without stimulation to keep the people working, the economy free-falls, business grinds to a halt and nobody has a job. And then those tax cuts are simply worthless.

Of all people, coal burners should understand the concept of keeping the fire going.

QED.

The one major difference I see here that you didn't bring up is that us coal burners also know when to dump a fire and just start over.

jeromemsn wrote:

stockingfull wrote: . . . Of all people, coal burners should understand the concept of keeping the fire going.
QED.

The one major difference I see here that you didn't bring up is that us coal burners also know when to dump a fire and just start over.

Is that caveman talk? I have a stoker and never have to dump a fire.

stockingfull wrote:You've completely ducked the questions: Are tax cuts faster? Can we afford to wait for Chapter 3 of Voodoo Economics to fail?

I've ducked nothing. Cut taxes. Cut spending. Period. End of story.

How is Obama spending $850 billion differ from GWB spending $700 billion? Of which we have only spend half and overpaid for the assets by 25%.

Government can't do ANYTHING right. It's impossible. The best thing for them to do is NOTHING. Get the hell out of the way. They aren't capable of running an economy. That is why we were set up to have a free market. Congress regulates the value of money. The market does the rest.

I know it kills people to think the market works but it does. Your definition of "voodoo economics" has nothing to the free market. The government micro manages and manipulates the market in a million different ways.

Would you advise a person who maxed out all their credit cards to borrow more money to pay them off but do nothing to restrain their spending?

How is doing what got us here going to get us out?

How is not doing anything (in a reprise of Herbert Hoover) going to get us out?

What got us here was the combination of voodoo "trickle down" tax-cut economics and the deregulation which allowed the class of investment "fiction authors" on Wall St to sprout like dandelions, and rip all of us off in the process.

Even if the odds are against the recovery succeeding, the choice between doing nothing and doing something has been made before in history -- and was made by the American electorate in the November election. You may not like it, but you were outvoted. Sorry.

I`m in favor of the stimulus plan, the only things I question are keeping the tax cuts for the wealthy. Then the minority party to save face allows tax cuts for whats left of the vanishing middle class. My question is how much does a tax cut help someone that no longer has an income?

I am one of those that say they should of done nothing. I don't want to be involved with helping to pay other peoples houses or credit card debt when they knew they couldn't afford it. I don't want to help investors pay for there ponzi schemes. I don't want to be involved with the stock market. You might think that I'm cruel and heartless but this is only the beginning of this, wait until the next reset of mortgage interest rates happens and more and more defaults happen. They need to stop helping banks that are no longer banks and make new banks that do business as banks not brokers. Greed has become the driver of this world again I say again because look back in history and look at what greed has done to societies before, it's what greed will do again. Please don't think our Treasury is doing anything different than they have done before in the past because it's all happened before. Giethner isn't doing anything new, he is a book man from the halls of the best university, books write of what has taken place and thats what he is doing trying anything from the past to fix the present.

One more quickie, Bank of America started paying out 1.6 billion in bonuses today, just not to us.

stockingfull wrote:How is not doing anything (in a reprise of Herbert Hoover) going to get us out?

What got us here was the combination of voodoo "trickle down" tax-cut economics and the deregulation which allowed the class of investment "fiction authors" on Wall St to sprout like dandelions, and rip all of us off in the process.

Even if the odds are against the recovery succeeding, the choice between doing nothing and doing something has been made before in history -- and was made by the American electorate in the November election. You may not like it, but you were outvoted. Sorry.

Why don't you check out the "Gramm/Leach/Bliley Act" and who signed that into law for a clue on who had a hand in the current mess we are in.

And America gets no where with people such as yourself clinging to the "R" and "D" mantra.

"I never submitted the whole system of my opinions to the creed of any party of men whatever, in religion, in philosophy, in politics, or in anything else, where I was capable of thinking for myself. Such an addiction is the last degradation of a free and moral agent. If I could not go to heaven but with a party, I would not go there at all." --Thomas Jefferson to Francis Hopkinson, 1789

Not impressed with either Party currently. One wants to steal our money and give it to rich people to spend and support growth and the economy. One wants to steal our money and give it away to people who don't produce anything. Neither one is interested in doing a single bloody thing to help grow the economy currently. They, and many people out here, are too busy fighting over the last eight years, and rewarding their political hacks, to lift a finger to do anything.

We have an "economic stimulus package" being passed in congress currently. By all indications, it's a massive spending bill that might have a little positive effect now, for a long payback period later. I can stimulate my own economy. I have good credit and could borrow a bunch of money and go on a spending spree. I'd be "wealthy" in many eyes... new car, truck, ATV, vacations... maybe my own business even. But eventually, that credit would have to be paid back. If the money I borrowed was not invested wisely in things that would make more money than I invested, I'd be bankrupt.

Great screaming and gnashing of teeth has occurred over the Republicans "obstructing" this bill.

"This is IMPORTANT! WE HAVE TO ACT NOW!"

That is so. We do have to act, sooner rather than later. My question which nobody seems able to answer is this.

"If this package was so important. How come it is so ladened with "non-stimulating" pork and spending that people who would be eager to support a growth stimulating bill cannot do it?" Really. If this darned thing is so critical, what is all the non-critical stuff doing in it? Why couldn't they all come into the room, discuss the things they could all agree on, and do it? Do not tell me that there is nothing on which every last congressman down to the least experienced freshman, couldn't agree to and get behind 100%. There is, both sides are simply unwilling to let the politics go and do what it right for the country and what respects our constitution, history, and principles.

And so it goes...

I've heard it said, "Obama gives me hope."

I say, "Obama makes me hope... I hope the damage that is done can be undone in my lifetime. I used to hope his plans would work. I become more cynical, angry, and less inclined to participate each day that passes."

"Disenfranchised", doesn't even begin to describe it. A cabin in the woods has more appeal on a daily basis. Sell it all for whatever I can get. Buy a patch of dirt with some trees on it, build a place, and go there. To hell with the rest. Nothing I can do for them anyway. Too busy trying to see what they can get for nothing.

Everybody is all upset over what they've "lost" in the crash. "My retirement is 50% gone!"

Ayuh... lost the company's half of that sucker... and still more to lose. I never really "had" it anyway. It was just a piece of paper with some numbers on it. Fake. A house of cards, and it collapsed before I could sell it off.

What do I really have? House, car, truck, ATV, a few grand in cash, a handful of guns and a couple thousand rounds of ammunition. Enough to get what I need in a pinch. I live in the country... when things get real bad the scum from the cities is going to fan out because they're going to be killing each other in the street over bottled water, because when they turn on the faucet nothing is going to come out of it. They're heading south in droves out of the northeast when it happens. Not coming here. Nobody has much of anything anyway, except we're not letting anybody take it from us, by hook or crook.

"BUSH!!! We can't do any worse!"

We'll see... I hope I am wrong, but we'll see.