Abuse at Gitmo

coalkirk · By: **coalkirk** On: Tue Feb 03, 2009 11:58 am

stockingfull wrote:Whether you call them "insurgents," "guerrillas," "freedom fighters," or members of the "resistance," un-uniformed zealots (including our own founding fathers at times during our Revolution) have always been a problem for justice systems.

Comparing our founding fathers to mass murdering terrorists who killed thousands of innocent women children and others, including muslims is outrageous!! But just the kind of manure I should expect to be shoveled by a panty waisted blame America first lefty like yourself.

What other libs are regulars on Fox?? Maura Alyison and Juan Williams both from NPR. Doesn't get anymore left than that.....unless you count you and your ilk.

Devil505 wrote:Regardless of that however, even if it could be proven that ALL the detainees are murderers, you really can't argue with the fact that Gitmo has became & international symbol of U.S. inhumanity & needs to be closed. Even Bush wanted it closed.

US inhumanity?? They are fed meals that comply with their religious beliefs at a cost of twice what is spent on the guards. They have their Korans and prayer mats. They are given full medical and dental care, even elective surgeries and routine colonostimies for those over 50. They never had it so good living in a cave in Pakistan. Anyone here who was inoocent or was MAYBE innocent is long gone.

Devil505 · By: **Devil505** On: Tue Feb 03, 2009 12:14 pm

coalkirk wrote:US inhumanity?? They are fed meals that comply with their religious beliefs at a cost of twice what is spent on the guards. They have their Korans and prayer mats.

Even if you were correct Terry, which most in the world say you aren't, just suppose a few of them are innocent?? Then what? Should they be grateful to us for false imprisonment, with no hope of release ever?

Besides that, even GW Bush recognized that the world's perception was one of U.S. inhumanity, & even he wanted it closed. Do you disagree as to the perception, if not the fact?

Devil505 · By: **Devil505** On: Tue Feb 03, 2009 12:23 pm

billlindley wrote:Here's a question about 9/11. Since many blame Bush please provide with a valid answer to what you would have done to stop the attacks.

Fair question:

1. I would have listened to career FBI Agents who were suspicious of M.E. men, in the U.S. Southwest, paying large amounts of money to flight schools, in cash, to learn how to fly airliners.... in flight! ..No landings or take offs....Just flight. (Washington told them to not worry about it)

2. When the CIA briefed me in August/2001 (1 month b4 the attack) that Al Quieda was planning an imminent, major attack within the U.S., I would have done something else besides going on vacation for the entire month of August!

That's just for starters, but heeding either of those warning could well have stopped 9/11 from ever happening & 3,000 innocent Americans would still be alive.

UpStateMike · By: **UpStateMike** On: Tue Feb 03, 2009 1:06 pm

If it was up to me, I'd douse every last one of those inmates in pig's blood, take pictures and then open the gates and tell them to find their own way back home. By the way, if that seems a bit over the top, how about at least implanting a tracking device on them under thier skin so we can track them 24/7. Great political move because we're being so nice to these scumbags that ALL were either trying to kill soldiers or did in fact kill soldiers, and let them go scurrying off to their rat's nests. Give them some time to settle back in and track them and call in the c-130 gunships to come along and break up their saturday night roadside bomb-making party.

Devil505 · By: **Devil505** On: Tue Feb 03, 2009 1:10 pm

UpStateMike wrote:we're being so nice to these scumbags that ALL were either trying to kill soldiers or did in fact kill soldiers,

& what do you base that statement on? FAITH in the same government that told us that Iraq had WMD's?...That handled Katrina so well? ...That handled our economy so well? (if that's the case, we can get rid of those silly courts & Trials. If the government accuses you....You are obviously guilty, right?.....It no longer will be "Innocent until proven guilty"...it will be "Guilty If Accused.")

coalkirk · By: **coalkirk** On: Tue Feb 03, 2009 6:00 pm

Devil505 wrote:Even if you were correct Terry, which most in the world say you aren't, just suppose a few of them are innocent?? Then what? Should they be grateful to us for false imprisonment, with no hope of release ever?

What is your basis for that statement? Most in the world would say there are innocent people there? I don't think so. There may have been some innocents caught up in the confusion but if there were, they were released years ago, along with many that turned out to be not so innocent. The couple hundred that remain are hard core really bad characters.

Besides that, even GW Bush recognized that the world's perception was one of U.S. inhumanity, & even he wanted it closed. Do you disagree as to the perception, if not the fact?

I never heard Bush wanted Gitmo closed. You'd have to show me a source for that one too. And frankly I don't care what the perception is that some may have about Gitmo. The reality is this is a really bad bunch that were it up to me, would have been shot on the battle field. In world war II non-uniformed enemy combatants were called spies and were shot.
These arn't innocent "freedom fighters" akin to our founding fathers as s'full stated. These are hardened religous fanatical murdering terrorists. They are living in the 13th century. They murder their own sisters and daughters for even a slight disabience to sharia law. Google "honor killings." You don't hear about it on ABC, CBS, NBC or CNN. It happens right here in the US and is swept under the rug. These fanatical muslims are animals. They'll get no sympathy from me.

Devil505 · By: **Devil505** On: Tue Feb 03, 2009 6:25 pm

coalkirk wrote:I never heard Bush wanted Gitmo closed. You'd have to show me a source for that one too.

Bush Says He Wants To Close Guantanamo
President Tells German TV He Wants 'To Get People To A Court'
http://www.cbsnews.com/stories/2006/05/ ... 6464.shtml

The US 'wants to end Guantanamo'
Dusk at Guantanamo Bay prison camp
The US has faced mounting criticism over the camp
Watch Bush's speech
US President George W Bush has said he would like to close the US prison camp at Guantanamo Bay and send many detainees back to their home countries.
BBC http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/americas/5102528.stm

PRESIDENT BUSH WANTS TO CLOSE GUANTANAMO BAY TERROR PRISON
Randy L. Harrington
WASHINGTON—In an interview President Bush said "I would like for there to be a way to return people from Guantanamo to their home countries, but some people need to be tried in our courts."
http://www.americanchronicle.com/articles/view/11060

coalkirk wrote:What is your basis for that statement? Most in the world would say there are innocent people there? I don't think so. There may have been some innocents caught up in the confusion but if there were, they were released years ago, along with many that turned out to be not so innocent. The couple hundred that remain are hard core really bad characters.

The basis of that statement comes in two parts:1. A lifetime of experience in federal prosecutions &...2. Common sense. What are the odds that EVERY remaining detainee is actually a terrorist & not just someone that we have treated badly in captivity & therefore don't want him free to tell his embarrassing story. If not the fact, that is a pretty common perception.

Sorry...Forgot this part: "These are hardened religous fanatical murdering terrorists. They are living in the 13th century. They murder their own sisters and daughters for even a slight disabience to sharia law. Google "honor killings." You don't hear about it on ABC, CBS, NBC or CNN. It happens right here in the US and is swept under the rug. These fanatical muslims are animals. They'll get no sympathy from me."....

That's an old prosecutors trick Terry: Make the crime so horrible that you'll enlist the emotions of the jury & hope they'll forget that you actually have to prove the defendant actually committed the horrible crime. The crimes did happen Terry...& they are as horrible as you say they are. What hasn't been proven is that the detainees in Gitmo (all of them) actually committed those crimes.

stockingfull · By: **stockingfull** On: Tue Feb 03, 2009 11:17 pm

coalkirk wrote:Comparing our founding fathers to mass murdering terrorists who killed thousands of innocent women children and others, including muslims is outrageous!! But just the kind of manure I should expect to be shoveled by a panty waisted blame America first lefty like yourself.

What other libs are regulars on Fox?? Maura Alyison and Juan Williams both from NPR. Doesn't get anymore left than that.....unless you count you and your ilk.

1. Those are personal attacks. But, of course, it's what you always resort to when your lame positions collapse.

2. One man's terrorist is another man's freedom fighter. Not only was this nation founded by what, in their time, clearly were "insurgent" or "resistance" or, perish the thought, "terrorist" tactics (what else do you call the Christmas night assault on the Hessian troops at Trenton which we celebrate as Washington's Crossing?), but we've quite happily supported the Contras, the Mujahideen, the 1973 Chilean coup and other terrorist groups who murdered when it suited our objectives. So don't give me your holier than thou "patriotic" BS, because it just doesn't withstand the slightest scrutiny.

3. Ooooh, a couple of NPR radio peeps get invited on Fox. And those are your "leftists?" :rofl:

Wait a minute; if they're leftists, aren't you writing your Congressmen to pull them off NPR? Lame again. Here, watch none other than "professor" Dick Armey make a complete a$$ of himself on Hardball a couple days ago against "heavyweight" Joan Walsh of Salon. http://www.salon.com/politics/war_room/2009/01/28/armey_walsh/ It was a pathetic meltdown by a former House Majority leader. Why? Because what's left of the party, like you, are a bunch of "Dittoheads," parroting and beholden to what Armey himself described as Rush's "inane," "juvenile delinquent" political talk. The fact of the matter is that there are so many media outlets today that impartiality is no longer relevant; they all cater to their audiences these days; you've got Fox on the right, MSNBC on the left and the rest somewhere in between. NYTimes left, Rupert's very own WSJ right. And your lame Gitmo site, set up by a former Gitmo Colonel and citing Fox vids, is nothing but a wingnut paradise, a veritable Dittohead Fantasyland. The idea that it is anything other than a pro-Gitmo shill is a complete farce.

coalkirk · By: **coalkirk** On: Wed Feb 04, 2009 7:48 am

stockingfull wrote:1. Those are personal attacks. But, of course, it's what you always resort to when your lame positions collapse.

2. One man's terrorist is another man's freedom fighter. Not only was this nation founded by what, in their time, clearly were "insurgent" or "resistance" or, perish the thought, "terrorist" tactics (what else do you call the Christmas night assault on the Hessian troops at Trenton which we celebrate as Washington's Crossing?), but we've quite happily supported the Contras, the Mujahideen, the 1973 Chilean coup and other terrorist groups who murdered when it suited our objectives. So don't give me your holier than thou "patriotic" BS, because it just doesn't withstand the slightest scrutiny.

3. Ooooh, a couple of NPR radio peeps get invited on Fox. And those are your "leftists?" Wait a minute; if they're leftists, aren't you writing your Congressmen to pull them off NPR? Lame again. Here, watch none other than "professor" Dick Armey make a complete a$$ of himself on Hardball a couple days ago against "heavyweight" Joan Walsh of Salon. http://www.salon.com/politics/war_room/ ... mey_walsh/ It was a pathetic meltdown by a former House Majority leader. Why? Because what's left of the party, like you, are a bunch of "Dittoheads," parroting and beholden to what Armey himself described as Rush's "inane," "juvenile delinquent" political talk. The fact of the matter is that there are so many media outlets today that impartiality is no longer relevant; they all cater to their audiences these days; you've got Fox on the right, MSNBC on the left and the rest somewhere in between. NYTimes left, Rupert's very own WSJ right. And your lame Gitmo site, set up by a former Gitmo Colonel and citing Fox vids, is nothing but a wingnut paradise, a veritable Dittohead Fantasyland. The idea that it is anything other than a pro-Gitmo shill is a complete farce.

That's not a personal attack. It's a fair assesment of your position. Amercia must be evil because we have prisoners at Gitmo. Well they are Obamas prisoners now. Let's see what happens to them.

Still comparing our founding fathers to these scum at Gitmo!? Yes, Washington attacked the Hessians on Christmas. SO WHAT??? They were troops at war. That's what it's about. Kill or be killed. There's no crime there counselor. So in your leftist mind, that's the moral equivalent of crushing and immulating thousands of INNOCENT CIVILIANS by crashing airplanes full of jet fuel into office buildings. You really are a dumb ass. (There's your personal attack)

I don't listen to Limbaugh. I think he is almost as big an idiot as you are. (There's another personal attack)
I also don't listen to Chris Matthews who has had a slobbering love affair with Obama since day one. "He said Obama made a tingle go up his leg" Please. MSNBC is much more a part of the Democrat party than Fox will ever be part of the Republican party. There's not even a hint of impariality with MSNBC.

So you are dissing Juan Williams and Maura Alyison? They weren't invited on Fox. They are regulars to give the liberal perspective to issues. They aren't left enough for you it sounds like. I forgot you are left of Lennin.

How's that "change we can believe in" thing working out for you? There have now been 3 or 4 high level Obama appointees that either haven't paid their taxes, have close lobbying connections that required "waivers" immediatley after the he issued his no lobbyists edict or commited crimes that required them to withdraw. Looks like business as usual to me. Nothing but smoke and mirrors.

: smoking obama.jpg (12.89 KiB) Viewed 241 times; Select:BBcode:; [nepafile=10849]smoking obama.jpg[/nepafile]

mikeandgerry · By: **mikeandgerry** On: Fri Feb 06, 2009 1:44 am

UpStateMike wrote: ... how about at least implanting a tracking device on them under thier skin so we can track them 24/7. ...ALL were either trying to kill soldiers or did in fact kill soldiers, and let them go scurrying off to their rat's nests. Give them some time to settle back in and track them and call in the c-130 gunships to come along and break up their saturday night roadside bomb-making party.

That's an idea I truly like !! No worries about "making them into terrorists" as the leftists like to say. With implants we hope to make them terrorists! Then we can flush the rats out.

I like homegrown Chenango County thinking!

Dann757 · By: **Dann757** On: Fri Feb 06, 2009 9:49 am

I have family in Chenango Forks.

I like that idea too! On their next dental visit knock them out and put a tracking device in some deep tissue someplace. Follow 'em home and spray 'em with lead.

I can't understand why Devil would stick up for our enemies. I just can't understand it. But he has admitted when others have a good point so I respect that. I'm sick of arguing about it, it's just what Bin Laden wants.

Once again, I remember 9/11 since I saw it from Washington Rock Park in Bound Brook, NJ. The same overlook that Washington's Army looked for British activity.

9/11 was a sucker punch. Sometimes you can see a sucker punch coming and put your dukes up and deflect it. Maybe hitting Saddam was wrong, but it made our enemies think twice about another sucker punch to us.

I think the fact that we brought them there in the first place shows more humanity than what they do to us, brutally and mercilessly behead prisoners on video.

Aren't our enemies already saying we are weak for closing Gitmo?

Like Tom Hanks in Saving Private Ryan, he let the German soldier go and ended up getting shot for the kindness.

Devil505 · By: **Devil505** On: Fri Feb 06, 2009 10:01 am

Dann757 wrote:I can't understand why Devil would stick up for our enemies. I just can't understand it. But he has admitted when others have a good point so I respect that. I'm sick of arguing about it, it's just what Bin Laden wants.

I'm not sticking up for our enemies.....I'm sticking up for our Constitution which says a man is not guilty just because he is accused of a crime. Just because the previous administration says all the detainees at Gitmo are vile terrorists doesn't make it so. We have both a moral & a legal obligation to PROVE a person is guilty of a crime b4 we punish them & the fact that a crime itself is terrible (ie 9/11) does not relieve a government from the obligation to make sure we get the right man.

This is not a difficult concept! Punish the guilty, not the innocent! Guilt is not proven by mere accusation. No man (citizen or not) should be thrown in jail for what amounts to a life sentence without a way to prove his/her innocence.

coalkirk · By: **coalkirk** On: Fri Feb 06, 2009 10:29 am

NEWS FLASH! The US Constitution doesn't apply to or protect those outside of the country, espeically foreign enemy combatants. We are at war with these folks. At minimum they should be in a POW camp until this is resolved. If it takes 100 years, so be it. We didn't capture German or Japanese fighters and then "release" them because some elements of society thought they should be free. This is insane! And don't tell me we are not officially at war. That's only because congress has lost the courage to act on such matters since the end of WWII. Make no mistake we are at war.

Devil505 · By: **Devil505** On: Fri Feb 06, 2009 10:51 am

coalkirk wrote:NEWS FLASH! The US Constitution doesn't apply to or protect those outside of the country, espeically foreign enemy combatants.

I have my own news flash......Beyond our Constitution there is International Law & just plain human morality which says that nobody should ever be tortured by a civilized nation & that every person deserves the right to prove their innocence in a legal proceeding of some type, regardless of nationality.

As far as this.."

coalkirk wrote:We are at war with these folks. At minimum they should be in a POW camp until this is resolved. If it takes 100 years, so be it.

I have argued b4 that we need to legally define what this new type of "War" is. Historically, warfare was carried out between nations for a relatively short, well defined time period until one side was vanquished or surrendered. The so called "War" against Terror is not a war in the traditional sense, where POW's should be able to be held until the war ends..... This "War" will never end & therefore cannot be crammed into the antiquated definitions of war that govern the treatment of traditional POW's. (It's akin to the War on Poverty ...or the WAR on Crime.....the term WAR is just a metaphor & doesn't fit except for grammatical emphasis) As far as I'm concerned, only a sovereign NATION can commit an act of war......individuals (even in a group) can only commit CRIMES. (like 9/11 which although huge, was a crime not an act of war)
My opinion is that our Battle against Islamic Fundamentalists falls into a "Never-Never Land" somewhere between traditional WAR & traditional CRIME, & requires a whole new set of laws to deal with it & a whole new Para-military/Police type force to deal with, & the strict limitation on the extensive "War Powers" that our Constitution gives the President in times of traditional war.

Devil505 · By: **Devil505** On: Fri Feb 06, 2009 10:51 am

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