Base Burner VS Double Burner Coal Stove

Base Burner VS Double Burner Coal Stove

PostBy: jackpine On: Mon Feb 02, 2009 12:46 pm

I am currently burning a Round Oak wood heater in my house and have been learning more and more about coal fire in this excellent website. I retired last year and am little tired of processing firewood to provide 75% of my heating needs. Recently, I experimented with burning anthracite coal in a cookstove at my cabin. Don't believe I have the hang of it totally, but will keep firing. Old iron stoves have always facinated me and there is a few coal burners for sale in this area and I am seriously thinking about buying one.

In looking at the various stoves a question has come up...what is the difference between a "base burner" and "double burner"?

Some help in this regard would be appreciated.

Thank you and best regards
jackpine
 
Baseburners & Antiques: Round Oak & Fuller-Warren Kitchen Heater
Other Heating: Forced air natural gas furnace

Re: Base Burner VS Double Burner Coal Stove

PostBy: CapeCoaler On: Mon Feb 02, 2009 1:21 pm

http://www.barnstablestove.com/html/baseburners.htm
Baseburner

Could be talking about the cooktop, how many plates for a cook stove.

May just be a variation on the word reburner/afterburner/secondary combustion which some people blend in with a base burner.
CapeCoaler
 
Stoker Coal Boiler: want AA130
Hand Fed Coal Stove: DS Machine BS#4, Harman MKII, Hitzer 503,...
Coal Size/Type: Pea/Nut/Stove

Re: Base Burner VS Double Burner Coal Stove

PostBy: franco b On: Mon Feb 02, 2009 2:07 pm

My understanding of base burner is that it partially recirculates the flue gas through the burning coals to obtain more complete combustion.

Looking at the back of the stove there is a large flue manifold with dampers installed. Exhaust can, by setting the dampers be directed up the flue or recirculated. That manifold had a flat top to it which was a good spot to set a coffee pot. These stoves were usually top of the line.

They might very well have improved burning since with all the mica windows many had there was probably plenty of air and all that was needed was to get the gas hot enough to burn. It also cut down on excess draft.

Richard
franco b
 
Hand Fed Coal Stove: V ermont Castings 2310, Franco Belge 262
Baseburners & Antiques: Glenwood Modern Oak 114
Coal Size/Type: nut and pea

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Re: Base Burner VS Double Burner Coal Stove

PostBy: jackpine On: Mon Feb 02, 2009 6:54 pm

franco b wrote:My understanding of base burner is that it partially recirculates the flue gas through the burning coals to obtain more complete combustion.

Looking at the back of the stove there is a large flue manifold with dampers installed. Exhaust can, by setting the dampers be directed up the flue or recirculated. That manifold had a flat top to it which was a good spot to set a coffee pot. These stoves were usually top of the line.

They might very well have improved burning since with all the mica windows many had there was probably plenty of air and all that was needed was to get the gas hot enough to burn. It also cut down on excess draft.

Richard


Thanks for the response Richard. Most of the antique coal stoves I have looked at recently have mica windows, collar on the back for chimney pipe and another collar with a damper and a nickel decorative grid on top. I have been told that the nickel grid can be removed and a pipe attached to the collar and was typically run into a upstair level of the house for additional heating capacity. Just trying to learn more about these stoves.

Jackpine
jackpine
 
Baseburners & Antiques: Round Oak & Fuller-Warren Kitchen Heater
Other Heating: Forced air natural gas furnace

Re: Base Burner VS Double Burner Coal Stove

PostBy: wsherrick On: Tue Feb 03, 2009 4:29 am

A base burner is a stove that is designed specifically for Anthracite Coal. The idea behind the base burner is to extract as much heat out of the fire as possible by directing the exhaust through passages or an extra flue on the simple models before the exhaust is finally allowed to escape up the chimney. These are powerful and efficient heaters and will out perform most any new stove made. Why they are not still made is a mystery to me. It is not advisable to burn wood or Bituminous in a base burner because the stove will extract enough heat out of the smoke that you will have creosote problems with wood and soot buildup problems with Bituminous. Burning Bituminous is where the Double Burner comes in. If I am not mistaken a Double burner has a damper on the back side of it near the bottom of the stove. This is to allow secondary air to be drawn up and heated before it is introduced over the fire. The proper amount of secondary air is critical in burning the hydrocarbons emitted by Bituminous. These hydrocarbons are also where most of the heat value of Bituminous is found. In order for them to burn successfully the temperature must be high enough inside of the firebox to ignite them and they must also have the proper amount of air added at the same time. The Double Burner if set correctly will heat up the secondary air before it is introduced above the fire and thus cause the hydrocarbon gasses to fire off. If you can get this secondary ignition of the gasses you will get a lot more heat per pound of coal burned and you will also eliminate a large portion of black smoke and soot from being produced because of the unburnt gasses cooling below their ignition point.
Bottom line. If you burn Anthracite-get a base burner. If you burn Bituminous-get the Double Burner.
wsherrick
 
Hand Fed Coal Stove: Glenwood Base Heater, Crawford Base Heater
Baseburners & Antiques: Crawford Base Heater, Glenwood, Stanley Argand
Coal Size/Type: Chestnut, Stove Size

Re: Base Burner VS Double Burner Coal Stove

PostBy: jackpine On: Tue Feb 03, 2009 9:10 am

wsherrick wrote:A base burner is a stove that is designed specifically for Anthracite Coal. The idea behind the base burner is to extract as much heat out of the fire as possible by directing the exhaust through passages or an extra flue on the simple models before the exhaust is finally allowed to escape up the chimney. These are powerful and efficient heaters and will out perform most any new stove made. Why they are not still made is a mystery to me. It is not advisable to burn wood or Bituminous in a base burner because the stove will extract enough heat out of the smoke that you will have creosote problems with wood and soot buildup problems with Bituminous. Burning Bituminous is where the Double Burner comes in. If I am not mistaken a Double burner has a damper on the back side of it near the bottom of the stove. This is to allow secondary air to be drawn up and heated before it is introduced over the fire. The proper amount of secondary air is critical in burning the hydrocarbons emitted by Bituminous. These hydrocarbons are also where most of the heat value of Bituminous is found. In order for them to burn successfully the temperature must be high enough inside of the firebox to ignite them and they must also have the proper amount of air added at the same time. The Double Burner if set correctly will heat up the secondary air before it is introduced above the fire and thus cause the hydrocarbon gasses to fire off. If you can get this secondary ignition of the gasses you will get a lot more heat per pound of coal burned and you will also eliminate a large portion of black smoke and soot from being produced because of the unburnt gasses cooling below their ignition point.
Bottom line. If you burn Anthracite-get a base burner. If you burn Bituminous-get the Double Burner.


This is exactly the information I am looking for to make a decision on a coal stove purchase. I have already looked at three different base burner stoves nearby and there is one on craigslist that I need to follow through on. Your information eliminates the double burner stoves I have looked at because of the more desirable anthracite coal. The cost of bagged antrhracite is going down in my area as more and more Amish families locate from Indiana, Ohio and Pennsylvania. Many of the Amish have brought their coal stoves with them and they are purchasing truckloads of bagged anthracite coal from Pennsylvania.

wsherrick, is the seperate heat flue located on top of the base burners practical? The stoves I have inspected have a damper in the heat flue collar and a decorative removable grid over the top. Sources say that you can attach a pipe to the collar and direct heat to another room above the stove.

Thanks again for the info.
jackpine
 
Baseburners & Antiques: Round Oak & Fuller-Warren Kitchen Heater
Other Heating: Forced air natural gas furnace

Re: Base Burner VS Double Burner Coal Stove

PostBy: wsherrick On: Tue Feb 03, 2009 2:48 pm

It may be possible to attach a duct to the stove and vent it upstairs, but; I've never seen it. A much more practical and attractive solution would be to install a register with adjustable louvers to allow the heat to rise into the upstairs room. This works well if the register is large enough. A smaller one will do if it has an electric fan to help move the air. Many houses have/had this type of set up to get the heat upstairs, but; the air has to be able to get back to the heat source somehow. The best way is to leave the door open on the upstairs room and allow the cooler air to follow the stairs back down to be reheated. This is called the, "Gravity," method of heating. That is natural convection moves the heat up to where you want it. Regardless of the method you decide to accomplish this; you can't go wrong with a nice, big base burner.
wsherrick
 
Hand Fed Coal Stove: Glenwood Base Heater, Crawford Base Heater
Baseburners & Antiques: Crawford Base Heater, Glenwood, Stanley Argand
Coal Size/Type: Chestnut, Stove Size

Re: Base Burner VS Double Burner Coal Stove

PostBy: jackpine On: Wed Feb 04, 2009 9:21 am

It is curious that the baseburner stove manufactures made the duct outlet as part of their design and as you said, never seen it in use. All the baseburner installations I have seen does not make use of a duct system either. This fact pretty much defeats my add-to-the-furnace concept.

My intent was to install a baseburner coal stove next to my natural gas forced air furnace in the basement and run a pipe from the coal stove into the furnace plenum. This setup would heat the basement and provide some heat to 1st and 2nd floor living space. But, now I am wondering just how much heat you can get from a 8" oval stove outlet.
jackpine
 
Baseburners & Antiques: Round Oak & Fuller-Warren Kitchen Heater
Other Heating: Forced air natural gas furnace

Re: Base Burner VS Double Burner Coal Stove

PostBy: CapeCoaler On: Wed Feb 04, 2009 10:05 am

The old base burners were never designed to be hooked to 'central heating' as we know it today.
The tops covered warming ovens or stove plates.
A picture of the outlet you are talking about would clarify what it is.
CapeCoaler
 
Stoker Coal Boiler: want AA130
Hand Fed Coal Stove: DS Machine BS#4, Harman MKII, Hitzer 503,...
Coal Size/Type: Pea/Nut/Stove

Re: Base Burner VS Double Burner Coal Stove

PostBy: UpStateMike On: Wed Feb 04, 2009 11:44 am

Hey another Doe-wag-i-ac owner! I also have a d-18 in the garage. I have burned anthracite in mine with no real issues other than it's tricky to shake down (for me anyways as I need the shaker handle for it). In fact that's how I got started on coal.

Make friends with the Amish folks, ask them about their stoves and the brands they prefer and why. If you decide on a coal stove then maybe they will let you get coal when they do and your price will be even cheaper.

Get a few bags of coal for you to try in your stove. I have burned coal and wood back and forth and it's a good way to learn the differences. Wait until you come in to your house that's nice and toasty and all you do is open the ash door to fire up the stove, then come back in a few minutes, pour in some coal, then come back a little later and shake the grates, empty the ash pan, pour in the coal and go enjoy the rest of the day not having to fuss with hauling, splitting and loading wood every couple of hours.

Here's a GREAT website http://www.goodtimestove.com/ that has some videos about the antique stove they restore and if you scroll down there's a baseburner section. Those are some pretty stoves, and why we got away from them to get into ugly metal boxes I don't know.
UpStateMike
 
Stove/Furnace Make: Elmira Oval (in house)
Stove/Furnace Model: Round Oak d-18 (workshop)

Re: Base Burner VS Double Burner Coal Stove

PostBy: jackpine On: Wed Feb 04, 2009 1:18 pm

CapeCoaler wrote:The old base burners were never designed to be hooked to 'central heating' as we know it today.
The tops covered warming ovens or stove plates.
A picture of the outlet you are talking about would clarify what it is.



http://cgi.ebay.com/ANTIQUE-PARLOR-POT-BELLY-CAST-IRON-WOOD-OR-COAL-STOVE_W0QQitemZ250363403860QQcmdZViewItemQQptZLH_DefaultDomain_0?hash=item250363403860&_trksid=p3286.c0.m14&_trkparms=72%3A1205%7C66%3A2%7C65%3A12%7C39%3A1%7C240%3A1318%7C301%3A1%7C293%3A1%7C294%3A50
This link is broken, either the page no longer exists or there is some other issue like a typo.


The 5th photo from left shows a stove hood or bonnet, stovepipe collar and a decorative grille. Some sources have told me you can remove the grille from the heat flue and install a pipe to run heat into another room
jackpine
 
Baseburners & Antiques: Round Oak & Fuller-Warren Kitchen Heater
Other Heating: Forced air natural gas furnace

Re: Base Burner VS Double Burner Coal Stove

PostBy: jackpine On: Wed Feb 04, 2009 2:16 pm

UpStateMike wrote:Hey another Doe-wag-i-ac owner! I also have a d-18 in the garage. I have burned anthracite in mine with no real issues other than it's tricky to shake down (for me anyways as I need the shaker handle for it). In fact that's how I got started on coal.

Make friends with the Amish folks, ask them about their stoves and the brands they prefer and why. If you decide on a coal stove then maybe they will let you get coal when they do and your price will be even cheaper.

Get a few bags of coal for you to try in your stove. I have burned coal and wood back and forth and it's a good way to learn the differences. Wait until you come in to your house that's nice and toasty and all you do is open the ash door to fire up the stove, then come back in a few minutes, pour in some coal, then come back a little later and shake the grates, empty the ash pan, pour in the coal and go enjoy the rest of the day not having to fuss with hauling, splitting and loading wood every couple of hours.

Here's a GREAT website http://www.goodtimestove.com/ that has some videos about the antique stove they restore and if you scroll down there's a baseburner section. Those are some pretty stoves, and why we got away from them to get into ugly metal boxes I don't know.


It is good to hear from a fellow Round Oak person. Model D - 18, I have twins, but I am selling one to help pay for a antique coal burner. It is interesting that you burn coal in the D - 18, have never seen a D - 18 set up for burning coal or never talked to anyone who burns coal in one. A few questions, if you do not mind.

Do you have the coal Round Oak insert that fits in the firepot?
What size coal?
Do you close the stovepipe collar, three-hole sliding draft?

I have a antique (circa 1930s) Quick Meal cookstove in my cabin and started experimenting burning anthracite last fall. I don't quite have the hang of it yet. I purchased a few bags of Reading bagged coal from the local Amish, and since then I found a local source for Blaschak's bagged coal.
jackpine
 
Baseburners & Antiques: Round Oak & Fuller-Warren Kitchen Heater
Other Heating: Forced air natural gas furnace

Re: Base Burner VS Double Burner Coal Stove

PostBy: UpStateMike On: Wed Feb 04, 2009 6:34 pm

Jackpine.

My round oak has the circular grate where the back half is unslotted. I have seen a different grate set up but never got any info about what the coal one looks like so I just work around it I guess. The cast iron is so thick in this stove I am not worried about damaging it. I burned nut coal in it. The fluted base area holds a lot of coal. I easily loaded up 40# in it last time with no problems and no concern of it going past the collar just below the sheet metal cylinder.

I keep the collar draft closed most of the time but it's probably because Its in the garage and during a winter like this one I'm going for max heat just to stay warm enough to be in there. I start a good strong wood fire, and build up the ash in the bottom. Once it's crumbled and not still a log I start adding the coal. At first just enough to cover the woodcoals, and then as that layer gets nice and cherry add another layer, and so on until the whole 40# bag was in the stove.
UpStateMike
 
Stove/Furnace Make: Elmira Oval (in house)
Stove/Furnace Model: Round Oak d-18 (workshop)

Re: Base Burner VS Double Burner Coal Stove

PostBy: jackpine On: Wed Feb 04, 2009 11:47 pm

Interesting, UpStateMike that you are burning coal in the Round Oak without the coal basket. I have been reluctant to burn coal in the D-18, because sources claim I could potentially warp the circular, half slotted grate or worse crack the cast iron firepot. At any rate your burning wood and coal interchangeable shows the versatility of the Round Oak heater.

What's the story on your D-18? How did you come by it? Have you had it long?

Jackpine
jackpine
 
Baseburners & Antiques: Round Oak & Fuller-Warren Kitchen Heater
Other Heating: Forced air natural gas furnace

Re: Base Burner VS Double Burner Coal Stove

PostBy: UpStateMike On: Tue Feb 10, 2009 12:44 pm

Hi Jack,

I got mine from my wife's stepfather. He got it from a used stove salesman. He claimed it didn't get hot enough (??????) for his back room. Of course, he was using wet green wood too. I readily accepted it and have been using it for about 7 years now. It is a great, reliable stove. I wouldn't mind getting a refurbished one or similar model for inside of the house. The one I have is a little surface pitted so I don't know if it would be worth the expense of plating, etc, but I don't know enough about the process to make that decision just yet.
UpStateMike
 
Stove/Furnace Make: Elmira Oval (in house)
Stove/Furnace Model: Round Oak d-18 (workshop)

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