who out there geothermls?

Re: who out there geothermls?

PostBy: ScottinPA On: Wed Dec 16, 2009 12:36 pm

To counter your points:
My system in NW PA for a 2200sq ft open floor plan house requires a 5T system per Manual J heat loss calcs. Turnkey cost = $24K. I'll get a 30% tax credit from it = $16.8K. Standard propane/natural gas system = approx $10-12K. Difference = $6.8K. Cost analysis based on current fuel prices figures an annual cost savings of $2200 but for arguements sake lets say its closer to $1500 per year. Payback on the difference is 4.5yrs. This is backed up by numerous quotes comparing apples to apples systems. Also, references I've spoken to all have experienced the calculated savings or more.

Inground components are backed by a 50yr warranty. Out of ground components (heat exchanger & blower) have a 10yr warranty. Fluid for heat transfer is a water/glycol-type solution in a closed loop. Better heat transfer than just water. Loops are below frost line - approx 6ft.

I will grant you that at the end of a long cold winter the system may not work as well but there and I'll need to use the resistance heating but that is all in the savings calcs.

I'm all for a nice wood or coal fire. Love to watch it on the cold winter day but for my day to day heating/cooling I feel geo is a pretty good option.
ScottinPA
 
Stove/Furnace Make: none(still building the house)

Re: who out there geothermls?

PostBy: BigBarney On: Wed Dec 16, 2009 2:49 pm

"Inground components are backed by a 50yr warranty. Out of ground components (heat exchanger & blower) have a 10yr warranty. Fluid for heat transfer is a water/glycol-type solution in a closed loop. Better heat transfer than just water. Loops are below frost line - approx 6ft."


Water gylcol mixture is not as good for heat transfer as plain water.A 50% solution

needs ~20% more flow for the same heat tranfer as plain water @36*F,so the pump

has to run more often with increased flow.Some of these systems also freeze the

ground and stop working in the coldest weather when heat demand is great.


The one big variable is the electric costs to run the system when they increase the

payback period is lengthened.

With the current schedule of rate increases of 50% and more in the next several

years this system could be very expensive to operate.



BigBarney
BigBarney
 

Re: who out there geothermls?

PostBy: ScottinPA On: Wed Dec 16, 2009 9:36 pm

Its not exactly water/glycol, not sure what the other fluid is an don't have the info here.

I agree and stated that there will be times near the end of a hard winter that it'll need to use the resistance heating. Sizing to avoid this will sacrifice air quality when the demands are less.

Sure the cost of electric will go up but its still cheaper than other forms of heat for my application.
ScottinPA
 
Stove/Furnace Make: none(still building the house)


Re: who out there geothermls?

PostBy: coalnewbie On: Sat Jan 09, 2010 2:42 pm

Had to poke my nose in again....

"It won't work as well at the end of winter and I will have to use resistance heating." The idea is theoretically interesting but it simply does not work like that. Go over the Sullivan and talk to the people who have actually done it. Stand on the shoulders of those that have gone before you. Give me the address of somebody in NEPA with a 2200sq ft house who is actually been using this system for 5 years or more and let's break down the actual energy costs. Even on environmental grounds it is a lousy idea.

Electric transmission nationally is about 24% efficient. So we take coal (50% of our energy comes from coal), burn it, transmit it where you need it, convert it back to heat..... hmmm I have a better idea..... same thoughts for the electric car. Oh, did I mention that the whole electric grid is overloaded now and if we adopted these ideas en masse we would need to spend trillions on upgrading the national grid. Obbuummmer seems to think we can run these power stations on tulips... aint goin' to happen.
coalnewbie
 
Hot Air Coal Stoker Stove: LL AnthraKing 180K, Pocono110K,KStokr 90K, DVC
Hand Fed Coal Stove: Hitzer 50-93,
Baseburners & Antiques: Invader 2 Wings Best, Glenwood #8 + Herald 116x
Coal Size/Type: Rice, Chestnut
Other Heating: Heating Oil CH, Toyotomi OM 22

Re: who out there geothermls?

PostBy: drujinin On: Tue Mar 30, 2010 2:45 pm

2 different homes that I know of here in Wisconsin have Geothermal through the swampy muck ground near them. The owners have said that it is good luck to have wet ground for the heat transfer. So they seem happy as there electric bills are less than $150 a month year round.
drujinin
 

Re: who out there geothermls?

PostBy: steamup On: Tue Mar 30, 2010 6:32 pm

Just a note that most of the sytems I have dealt with use about a 15% propylene glycol solution to prevent ice buildup inside the heat pump heat refrigerant to water heat exchanger. The unit are capable of running a such a low suction temperature, that once ice start to build, the suction temp lowers even more, causing more ice to build until a problem occurs.

There is a slight sacrifice of efficiency but not nearly as much as a 50-50 mix.

Geothermal is not for everyone and has to have the right conditions for payback.
steamup
 
Stoker Coal Boiler: Axeman-Anderson AA-130, Keystoker K-6
Hand Fed Coal Boiler: HS Tarm 502 Wood/Coal/Oil
Coal Size/Type: pea, buck, rice

Re: who out there geothermls?

PostBy: ur12 On: Sun Apr 17, 2011 10:11 pm

i moved into a new 2900 sq. ft. ranch house in june 14th of 2010. waterfurnace envision geo thermal system installed. 2 electric ovens,2 fridges,1 freezer,electric dryer,electric hot water, 3 computers and a wife that likes to cook. southwest pa with duquesne light as electric company(8.56 price to compare plus their 6.2 distribution charge). heating cooling system including ductwork was $28,000 minus 30 % uncle sam put directly back in my pocket,= 19,600 cost. best heat pump was priced at $15,350...4,250 dollar difference. no gas was available, oil out of the question.

all meter reading done on the 12th of the month:


july $ 229.......$84
august $ 267...... $122
sept $ 259....... $114
oct $ 145....... 0
nov $ 187 .......$42
dec $ 238 .......$92
jan $ 274 ......$129
feb $ 286 .......$141
march $ 237 .......$92
april $ 174 .......$29

the october bill is the only month we did not heat or use the ac, so i am assuming that is my normal electric use...$ 145..

the second column is extra cost to heat/cool, not counting xmas lights and the extra time we use lights because of the shorter days during winter.

525 dollars to heat with geothermal.....payback is every year

the coldest the incoming water temperature that i recorded was 38 degrees in march. it is back up to 45 degrees as of yesterday

this is my experience with geothermal...not what i have read or someone has told me about
ur12
 

Re: who out there geothermls?

PostBy: homecomfort On: Fri Apr 22, 2011 6:34 pm

Geo thermal IS the answer, just not the way it is presented to the un suspecting public. The low grade heat under ground is an excellent source for a heat pump, regardless of location. problem,it is way over designed, not really well thought out , over priced. I installed a system of my own design that is about 1/3 of the cost, works as well, or better for heating and a/c, and can used with old fashioned radiators or radiant floor heat. my heating cost is even less than coal, with just the turn of a thermostat. someday, this, or something similar will be available to the public. someone already is trying to encourage geothermal with a tax rebate, good intent, too bad the current systems rob the tax payers.
homecomfort
 
Stove/Furnace Make: Franco-Belge,+ Penn Stove
Stove/Furnace Model: Normandie, + Chubby

Re: who out there geothermls?

PostBy: homecomfort On: Fri Apr 22, 2011 6:42 pm

Hi Freddy. The Nyle company unit is a good unit. North road technologies is the name I think.. it is a heat pump unit that pumps water with its own pump through heat pump and into your own tank. customers have been happy with them, 1/4 the electric for the same amount of heat, about 13000btu, for 1/4 the electric use. stay away from the air tap units, not as good. by using the free renewable heat from a basement or utility room, the heat pump only transfers and compresses the heat. not everyone has a good set up for them, but if you do, you can save alot on domestic hot water generation. I have tried several in my home, will never use any other system.
homecomfort
 
Stove/Furnace Make: Franco-Belge,+ Penn Stove
Stove/Furnace Model: Normandie, + Chubby

Re: who out there geothermls?

PostBy: Sting On: Fri Apr 22, 2011 6:50 pm

ImageImage

homecomfort wrote: I installed a system of my own design that is about 1/3 of the cost, works as well, or better for heating and a/c, and can used with old fashioned radiators or radiant floor heat. my heating cost is even less than coal, with just the turn of a thermostat.

Image

I am tearing my solid fuel boiler system out to install a thermal nuclear appliance that will work with out of date cast Mack truck radiators and glass windows - The windows will provide vents for the excess to completely heat the abutting neighbors houses and it should reduce the cost of heating the homes across the street by at least 1/2.

With just the twist of a finger at my nose. The stumble is getting the 1point1 Gigawatts to the DeLorian so I can travel to recover the needed rods! We may need to evacuate within 12 miles - but your all far enough to the EAST!

Image
Sting
 
Other Heating: OBSO Lennox Pulse "Air Scorcher" burning NG

Re: who out there geothermls?

PostBy: steamup On: Mon Apr 25, 2011 4:54 pm

You can count on Sting to keep the testamonials in line. :whip:
steamup
 
Stoker Coal Boiler: Axeman-Anderson AA-130, Keystoker K-6
Hand Fed Coal Boiler: HS Tarm 502 Wood/Coal/Oil
Coal Size/Type: pea, buck, rice