Geothermal Costs, Payback Time, Pros and Cons

 
User avatar
gitrdonecoal
Member
Posts: 506
Joined: Fri. Oct. 16, 2009 4:35 pm
Location: Elba, NY
Hot Air Coal Stoker Stove: Keystoker 90

Post by gitrdonecoal » Sun. Feb. 08, 2009 4:16 pm

hey, did not know if anyone of you guys have a geothermal out there (i love my coal personally ) my father heats with propane and really needs to get away from it. 1100 sq ft ranch, furnace and hot water and bill was over 500 for about 6 weeks. I personally have a hand fired furnace. mentioned they make stoker furnaces or boilers, but still, he really wants geothermal. and yes, he knows it will not be cheap, he understands that. we had a few questions for you guys:

1.how much did you pay?

2.overall experience (heat/cool good, parts hold up, ect)

3.how long before you start seeing savings/ payback time?

4.would you do it again

thank you for reading, and as always, stay warm


 
User avatar
CoalHeat
Member
Posts: 8862
Joined: Sat. Feb. 10, 2007 9:48 pm
Location: Stillwater, New Jersey
Stoker Coal Boiler: 1959 EFM 350
Hand Fed Coal Stove: Harman Magnafire Mark I
Baseburners & Antiques: Sears Signal Oak 15 & Andes Kitchen Range
Coal Size/Type: Rice and Chestnut
Other Heating: Fisher Fireplace Insert

Post by CoalHeat » Sun. Feb. 08, 2009 5:19 pm

I only know 1 person who has a geothermal system, here in NW NJ. It's great in the summer for AC. In the winter the electric heating elements operate to provide enough heat. He installed a fancy thermostat for day time set-back when no one is home. It's set to start raising the temperature 2 degrees per hour mid afternoon to avoid using the elements. I've lost touch with him but I know compressors don't last due to the heavy use. Last time I was there in the winter it was cold in the house. You are also at the mercy of the power company and the electric meter.

Not something I would want to have.

 
User avatar
ceccil
Member
Posts: 1062
Joined: Sat. Mar. 15, 2008 11:33 pm
Location: Elmira, NY

Post by ceccil » Sun. Feb. 08, 2009 7:01 pm

Wood'nCoal wrote:It's great in the summer for AC. In the winter the electric heating elements operate to provide enough heat.
I saw a show or read it somewhere that this is the case if your this far north. Said it works very well for cooling but not all that great for heating unless your a bit further south. It showed a map of the approx. cutoff area where they don't work as well for heat any further north of the line. I don't remember the cutoff line though.

Jeff

 
User avatar
whistlenut
Member
Posts: 3548
Joined: Sat. Mar. 17, 2007 6:29 pm
Location: Central NH, Concord area
Stoker Coal Boiler: AA130's,260's, AHS130&260's,EFM900,GJ & V-Wert
Hand Fed Coal Boiler: Franks,Itasca 415,Jensen, NYer 130,Van Wert
Hot Air Coal Stoker Furnace: Alaska, EFM, Keystoker, Yellow Flame
Hot Air Coal Stoker Stove: Alaska, Keystoker-2,Leisure Line
Hand Fed Coal Stove: Alaska, Gibraltar, Keystone,Vc Vigilant 2
Hand Fed Coal Furnace: Ford, Jensen, NYer, Van Wert,
Baseburners & Antiques: Glenwoods
Coal Size/Type: Barley, Buck, Rice ,Nut, Stove
Other Heating: Oil HWBB

Post by whistlenut » Sun. Feb. 08, 2009 7:37 pm

My neighbor's had one done last summer. 6-500' wells, huge electric commitment, lots of 'moving parts', pumps, electric valving, compressors, controls. HVAC on a 9600 sq ft building/w conference center. 38 K invested, payback suppose to be within 14 years. Sounds like simple technology, however lots of equipment to keep an eye on. There is a gassification boiler running there right now heating the place. Each of us must pick our poison.
Another local guy spent 350K on a solar panel array................and has 6 120 gallon propane fired water heaters to take over when solar gain isn't enough to maintain building temps. I'm thinking of having an elastic band installed so that my chin won't hit the pavement so hard when I see these "Latest and greatest engineering feats." (That is 350K not 35L. You read it correctly.)
I have never seen so many automated Grundfos valves and pumps in one spot. The computer control is sci-fi.......

That is a lot of 24 ton trailers of anthracite...................

 
User avatar
VigIIPeaBurner
Member
Posts: 2579
Joined: Fri. Jan. 11, 2008 10:49 am
Location: Pequest River Valley, Warren Co NJ
Hot Air Coal Stoker Furnace: Keystoker Koker(down)
Hand Fed Coal Stove: Vermont Casting Vigilant II 2310
Other Heating: #2 Oil Furnace

Post by VigIIPeaBurner » Sun. Feb. 08, 2009 8:46 pm

I don't have a system, but know two who do. One has the grid in the soil and the other has one well some 700'. The well unit is in granitic gneiss. 1.2 gpm and was fracked to increase the static level. Water went much higher in the well but I don't know how high. Same issues as stated here already.

 
TimV
Member
Posts: 312
Joined: Wed. Dec. 26, 2007 10:06 pm
Location: Glens Falls NY Area
Hand Fed Coal Stove: Older Ashley Cabinet ( pre US Stove gobble up)
Hand Fed Coal Furnace: Energy King 480 EK
Coal Size/Type: Warm weather smaller coal. Cold weather larger coal.
Other Heating: Oil Furnace Backup when repairs are needed

Post by TimV » Sun. Feb. 08, 2009 10:01 pm

Its takes ENERGY to make heat .
You can pay the oilman,the coal man ,propane man/gas man,wood chopper or the electric man.
If you live in the North Country your going to pay for heat one way or another .

 
User avatar
Freddy
Member
Posts: 7292
Joined: Fri. Apr. 11, 2008 2:54 pm
Location: Orrington, Maine
Stoker Coal Boiler: Axeman Anderson 130 (pea)
Coal Size/Type: Pea size, Superior, deep mined

Post by Freddy » Mon. Feb. 09, 2009 5:34 am

Just 3 miles from me is the Nyle company. They make the most efficient air to air heat exchangers on Earth, bar none. Using the Nyle system, drilling wells, digging ditches, running underground pipes is a thing of the past. Still expensive, still uses electricity, but if you're about to go geothermal you'd be wise to include Nyle in your research.

"The new air-to-air heat pump is optimized for heating, and tests have shown a coefficient of performance (COP) of 2 at zero degrees Fahrenheit (F) and 2.4 at 10 degrees F. Conventional air-to-air heat pumps would have long since switched to resistance heating at those outside temperatures"
Last edited by Freddy on Sat. Apr. 01, 2017 1:39 am, edited 2 times in total.
Reason: <removed dead link>


 
User avatar
gitrdonecoal
Member
Posts: 506
Joined: Fri. Oct. 16, 2009 4:35 pm
Location: Elba, NY
Hot Air Coal Stoker Stove: Keystoker 90

Post by gitrdonecoal » Mon. Feb. 09, 2009 7:38 am

these are all great. he is looking for the water type geo system, well water. should he use his existing well or just drill a new one? he has never ran out of water on that well, its been a good well. anything good with the water type systems?

 
User avatar
VigIIPeaBurner
Member
Posts: 2579
Joined: Fri. Jan. 11, 2008 10:49 am
Location: Pequest River Valley, Warren Co NJ
Hot Air Coal Stoker Furnace: Keystoker Koker(down)
Hand Fed Coal Stove: Vermont Casting Vigilant II 2310
Other Heating: #2 Oil Furnace

Post by VigIIPeaBurner » Mon. Feb. 09, 2009 7:59 am

mudman wrote:these are all great. he is looking for the water type geo system, well water. should he use his existing well or just drill a new one? he has never ran out of water on that well, its been a good well. anything good with the water type systems?
The family that has the well system siphons heat of a separate well. I think it's required here. Not surprised either.

 
User avatar
coaledsweat
Site Moderator
Posts: 13761
Joined: Fri. Oct. 27, 2006 2:05 pm
Location: Guilford, Connecticut
Stoker Coal Boiler: Axeman Anderson 260M
Coal Size/Type: Pea

Post by coaledsweat » Mon. Feb. 09, 2009 8:51 am

mudman wrote:these are all great. he is looking for the water type geo system, well water. should he use his existing well or just drill a new one? he has never ran out of water on that well, its been a good well. anything good with the water type systems?
He needs separate wells from his water source. The water never leaves the well in geothermal, it is just a transfer medium between the ground and the plumbed loop in the well to the homes heating/cooling equipment. These loops contain a special fluid generally.
I wouldn't go with it north of the Mason-Dixon line, it doesn't have any punch below 40*.

 
User avatar
Freddy
Member
Posts: 7292
Joined: Fri. Apr. 11, 2008 2:54 pm
Location: Orrington, Maine
Stoker Coal Boiler: Axeman Anderson 130 (pea)
Coal Size/Type: Pea size, Superior, deep mined

Post by Freddy » Mon. Feb. 09, 2009 10:48 am

The latest ones using wells don't even use the water in the well. They drill the well, run a pipe down it & back up, then fill the well with grout (concrete). The only reason for the well it to exchange heat from the water in the pipe.

 
User avatar
Uglysquirrel
Member
Posts: 1205
Joined: Mon. Jan. 07, 2008 8:27 pm

Post by Uglysquirrel » Sun. Feb. 15, 2009 9:38 am

Experience is limited here on geo but I did talk to a couple geo guys for one company at the Hartford CT homeshow who seemed honest, they said that since I had hydronic baseboard heat the geo would have a hard time getting the water hot enough to be an effective heat transfer medium. They recommended geo only with hot air homes since the heat transfer to air is easier.

 
CapeCoaler
Member
Posts: 6515
Joined: Sun. Feb. 10, 2008 3:48 pm
Location: Cape Cod, MA
Stoker Coal Boiler: want AA130
Hand Fed Coal Stove: DS Machine BS#4, Harman MKII, Hitzer 503,...
Coal Size/Type: Pea/Nut/Stove

Post by CapeCoaler » Mon. Feb. 16, 2009 11:45 pm

Properly designed ground source heat pump in new construction works well.
Using the heat pump to upgrade a low temp heat source works also.
Solar at low working temps is effective even up north.
Put a low temp solar install with a heat pump is a good match.

 
User avatar
Berlin
Member
Posts: 1890
Joined: Thu. Feb. 09, 2006 1:25 pm
Location: Wyoming County NY

Post by Berlin » Tue. Feb. 17, 2009 12:48 am

or he could just buy a used oil (not a "used oil") furnace from craigslist for around $400.00. i'm not sure what he's paying for propane, but wherever he is oil is consistanly 2/3 to 1/2 the cost per btu. why anyone would heat w/ propane is beyond me, in many places it's more $$ than electric, but people still use it.

geothermal is not the answer, the initial investment is too expensive. invest the thousands of $$ you would have spent on geothermal into the market right now, and in the time he would have "payed for" his geo system, he could probably pay for propane for the rest of his life with the profit from the stocks.

 
User avatar
steamup
Member
Posts: 1209
Joined: Fri. Oct. 03, 2008 12:13 pm
Location: Napoli, NY
Stoker Coal Boiler: Axeman-Anderson AA-130, Keystoker K-6
Hand Fed Coal Boiler: HS Tarm 502 Wood/Coal/Oil
Coal Size/Type: pea, buck, rice

Post by steamup » Tue. Feb. 17, 2009 11:52 am

mudman wrote:hey, did not know if anyone of you guys have a geothermal out there (i love my coal personally ) my father heats with propane and really needs to get away from it. 1100 sq ft ranch, furnace and hot water and bill was over 500 for about 6 weeks. I personally have a hand fired furnace. mentioned they make stoker furnaces or boilers, but still, he really wants geothermal. and yes, he knows it will not be cheap, he understands that. we had a few questions for you guys:

1.how much did you pay?

2.overall experience (heat/cool good, parts hold up, ect)

3.how long before you start seeing savings/ payback time?

4.would you do it again

thank you for reading, and as always, stay warm
I have been involved with several geothermal projects on a commercial scale. I usually don't get involved with residential but I am familiar with several installations.

1. They are not cheap. The two most popular ground heat exchange methods are bore holes with tubing or slinky method. Bore holes are more popular around my neck of the woods as the well drillers have the equipment to make these. Slinky method requires a large excavation. See attached photo.
5 ton pic 2.jpg
.JPG | 94.3KB | 5 ton pic 2.jpg
Expect to pay $7,000 to $10,000 for a system installed for a 1,100 sq. ft. house. Maybe more. Best thing would be to get a contractor to give a quote.

2. There are more moving parts with heat pump systems. Main concern is the compressor as this runs for both heating and cooling. Typical life cycle of a heat pump refrigeration compressor is 15 years but longer life is possible.

3. Pay back is dependent on what you pay for electric vs. propane. Average coeffiency of performace of a ground source heat pump is 3 BTU's of heat moved to 1 BTU of electric. Some more efficient model are 4 to 1. Use a fuel cost calculator for electric vs. propane and divide the electric cost per kwh by 4. This will give you a ball park. It may or may not be cheaper than propane. If you have to replace the heating system anyway, the payback will be quicker as you only use the cost premium for geothermal in the payback calculation.

4. Most installations are for new or substantially remodelled construction where the building is highly energy efficient. I know people that are very happy with their system and would not change.

Personally, I would investigate energy conservation measures for the house and heating system first. Air leakage is the highest load on any heating system. Caulk, foam in a can and weatherstripping can have very, very fast paybacks. Investigate high efficiency heating equipment also. Depending on how efficient his current system is, a high efficiency furnace may be a good investment.

And yes, they work well above the mason-dixon line.


Post Reply

Return to “Wood, Pellets, Gas, Oil, Geothermal & Other Heating Types”