Things like this don't happen in the land of the free, ...

Re: Things like this don't happen in the land of the free, ...

PostBy: jpete On: Wed Dec 05, 2012 7:22 pm

Northern Maine wrote: Rights always come along with responsibilities, and it’s the latter part of that truism that libertarians generally forget.


The only "responsibility" that came with my "rights" is the obligation not to interfere with YOUR rights.

And that's a truism statists generally forget.
jpete
 
Hand Fed Coal Stove: Harman Mk II
Coal Size/Type: Stove, Nut, Pea
Other Heating: Dino juice

Re: Things like this don't happen in the land of the free, ...

PostBy: rockwood On: Wed Dec 05, 2012 7:32 pm

How 'bout privacy and just wanting to be left alone.
rockwood
 
Hot Air Coal Stoker Furnace: Stokermatic coal furnace
Hand Fed Coal Stove: Rockwood Stoveworks Circulator
Baseburners & Antiques: Malleable/Monarch Range
Coal Size/Type: Soft coal: Lump and stoker (slack coal)

Re: Things like this don't happen in the land of the free, ...

PostBy: lsayre On: Wed Dec 05, 2012 8:15 pm

Have no fear! You will never feel alone (or free) with these guys on the job!

http://rt.com/usa/news/surveillance-spy ... izens-178/
lsayre
 
Stoker Coal Boiler: AHS S130 Coal Gun
Coal Size/Type: Anthracite Pea
Other Heating: Resistance Boiler (It has been fixed!)


Re: Things like this don't happen in the land of the free, ...

PostBy: SMITTY On: Wed Dec 05, 2012 8:17 pm

I was just going to post a thread on this. Just read this: :shock:

http://www.theblaze.com/stories/2012/12 ... veillance/
SMITTY
 
Stoker Coal Boiler: Patriot Coal - custom built by Jim Dorsey
Hand Fed Coal Stove: Harman Mark III (not currently in use)
Coal Size/Type: Rice / Blaschak anthracite
Other Heating: Oil fired Burnham boiler

Re: Things like this don't happen in the land of the free, ...

PostBy: rockwood On: Wed Dec 05, 2012 9:18 pm

rockwood wrote:I've been reading about this "data center" for some time now....The title of the article says it all. "Safety or Surveillance".

Soon, there's going to be no such thing as privacy, and it's all in the name of keeping (you) safe.

http://www.ksl.com/?sid=22705217&nid=14 ... featured-1


Who knows how many of these data centers there are (or will be).
rockwood
 
Hot Air Coal Stoker Furnace: Stokermatic coal furnace
Hand Fed Coal Stove: Rockwood Stoveworks Circulator
Baseburners & Antiques: Malleable/Monarch Range
Coal Size/Type: Soft coal: Lump and stoker (slack coal)

Re: Things like this don't happen in the land of the free, ...

PostBy: Rwalker On: Wed Dec 05, 2012 10:24 pm

I have steered clear of this thread for many reasons. First and foremost is I am quite tired of talking about it and I am just focused on getting ready to handle what ever comes down the line at us. However, this whole thing has me a bit concerned.

On one hand, I agree with guys like Freetown Fred, if you aren't doing anything wrong, then you have nothing to worry about. On the other hand, I believe in our freedoms as Americans. Our Amendments. Our rights. Rights that my grandfather fought for in cold, wet trenches 10' away from Germans trying like hell to kill him. He didnt do that so our government could read our every email, text message, and listen in on our phone calls. My grandfather is probably rolling over in his grave over that!

I dont think a text I send to my wife should be allowed to be saved and stored in some massive database. I dont think an email I send to my mom should be either. I dont think a phone call I make should be recorded. Should they be scanned and looked at for key phrases? Sure...certain words should tip them off and allow them to dig deeper, but just a conversation between me and my wife that is PERSONAL if you get my drift, should be no one's f*cking business but mine.

I guess what bothers me the most about all of this is so many of the nuts out there that do the terrible crimes, the mass shootings, the car bombings, so many of them blog and Facebook about it for weeks before they uncork. No one ever seems to catch it and stop it. If they are really concerned about it, then they should be scanning for those types of things, not reading text messages about what my wife is wearing to bed tonight or where we are going fishing when the weather turns.

Kind of reminds me of the movie Minority Report with Tom Cruise...

It is unfortunate that things that are designed to keep us safe or help us in one way or another, always end up harming us in the end.

"As far as his own life was concerned, one thing seemed quite clear. 'I made one great mistake in my life,' he said to Linus Pauling, who spent an hour with him on the morning of November 11, 1954, '...when I signed the letter to President Roosevelt recommending that atom bombs be made; but there was some justification - the danger that the Germans would make them.'".

Ronald Clark, Einstein: The Life and Times, pg. 620.
Rwalker
 
Stove/Furnace Make: Hitzer
Stove/Furnace Model: 983

Re: Things like this don't happen in the land of the free, ...

PostBy: franco b On: Wed Dec 05, 2012 10:51 pm

Who defines what doing wrong is? certainly not the individual.

Private messages are open to erroneous interpretation.

And they laughed when I got my tinfoil hat.
franco b
 
Hand Fed Coal Stove: V ermont Castings 2310, Franco Belge 262
Baseburners & Antiques: Glenwood Modern Oak 114
Coal Size/Type: nut and pea

Re: Things like this don't happen in the land of the free, ...

PostBy: freetown fred On: Wed Dec 05, 2012 11:02 pm

Does anybody really think that it's only the Govt. that has access to anything you put out there in the cyber world. I think the Govt should be the least of your worries. It is feared that our whole economic system could be shut down by the hit of a few keybord keys--again, not the govt. All this gloom & doom projection is good for the imagination I suppose, but for myself, if I don't want people or the govt controlling my life, why would I post anything publically. Life is way to short to be whining about what is or may be. If you're all paranoid about all this real, grown up life stuff, stop putting yourselfs out there. Sure, we as a Country are not where,I beleive, we belong but I've said this a lot--all we can do as individuals is keep our own back yards straight & make sure our voices are heard in the right places.
freetown fred
 
Hand Fed Coal Stove: HITZER 50-93
Coal Size/Type: BLASCHAK Nut/Stove mix

Re: Things like this don't happen in the land of the free, ...

PostBy: jpete On: Wed Dec 05, 2012 11:21 pm

freetown fred wrote:Does anybody really think that it's only the Govt. that has access to anything you put out there in the cyber world. I think the Govt should be the least of your worries. It is feared that our whole economic system could be shut down by the hit of a few keybord keys--again, not the govt. All this gloom & doom projection is good for the imagination I suppose, but for myself, if I don't want people or the govt controlling my life, why would I post anything publically. Life is way to short to be whining about what is or may be. If you're all paranoid about all this real, grown up life stuff, stop putting yourselfs out there. Sure, we as a Country are not where,I beleive, we belong but I've said this a lot--all we can do as individuals is keep our own back yards straight & make sure our voices are heard in the right places.


The question is not whether I put anything on the internet or not or whether I'm doing anything wrong or not.

The question is, does the Fourth Amendment mean what it says or not?

The right of the people to be secure in their persons, houses, papers, and effects, against unreasonable searches and seizures, shall not be violated, and no Warrants shall issue, but upon probable cause, supported by Oath or affirmation, and particularly describing the place to be searched, and the persons or things to be seized.


Do you have a RIGHT to be secure in your "effects" which would cover all private texts and phone conversations.

I don't expect any privacy on this forum because it's an open area which anyone can access. But I do expect any texts I send to my wife to be exclusive between us unless as the 4A states, a warrant has been signed by a judge which names SPECIFICALLY the information being sought by the police.

You can't be half pregnant. You either have a right to privacy or you don't.

Pick a side.
jpete
 
Hand Fed Coal Stove: Harman Mk II
Coal Size/Type: Stove, Nut, Pea
Other Heating: Dino juice

Re: Things like this don't happen in the land of the free, ...

PostBy: freetown fred On: Wed Dec 05, 2012 11:46 pm

You being such a Constitutionalist (LOL) I don't see anyone interfering with your "freedom of speech" anywhere. Let's see--reading the fourth amendment, I'm sorry, I can't find anything about emails or texting or anything that even mentions computers, cell phones or even regular phones--for someone that spouts to the "T" the constitution---or is that just when it's convenient? I guess that updating every 9 years might not of been all that bad to follow through on ;) Oh wait, I beleive you stated that you disagree with that when it was mentioned. Hmmm?
freetown fred
 
Hand Fed Coal Stove: HITZER 50-93
Coal Size/Type: BLASCHAK Nut/Stove mix

Re: Things like this don't happen in the land of the free, ...

PostBy: jpete On: Thu Dec 06, 2012 12:09 am

freetown fred wrote:You being such a Constitutionalist (LOL) I don't see anyone interfering with your "freedom of speech" anywhere. Let's see--reading the fourth amendment, I'm sorry, I can't find anything about emails or texting or anything that even mentions computers, cell phones or even regular phones--for someone that spouts to the "T" the constitution---or is that just when it's convenient? I guess that updating every 9 years might not of been all that bad to follow through on ;) Oh wait, I beleive you stated that you disagree with that when it was mentioned. Hmmm?


Maybe you should put down the moonshine and pick up a book. Preferably a dictionary.

http://dictionary.reference.com/browse/effects?s=t

ef·fects

plural noun

goods; movables; personal property.


Are computers and cell phone and even regular phones "personal property"?

Just do this Fred.... :yes:

And maybe if you are done being poorly sarcastic, you could cite where I said the Constitution SHOULDN'T be revisited every so often.

I'm pretty sure I'm the one that advocates not tying future generations with our debt and our laws.
jpete
 
Hand Fed Coal Stove: Harman Mk II
Coal Size/Type: Stove, Nut, Pea
Other Heating: Dino juice

Re: Things like this don't happen in the land of the free, ...

PostBy: Northern Maine On: Thu Dec 06, 2012 7:37 am

jpete wrote:
freetown fred wrote:Does anybody really think that it's only the Govt. that has access to anything you put out there in the cyber world. I think the Govt should be the least of your worries. It is feared that our whole economic system could be shut down by the hit of a few keybord keys--again, not the govt. All this gloom & doom projection is good for the imagination I suppose, but for myself, if I don't want people or the govt controlling my life, why would I post anything publically. Life is way to short to be whining about what is or may be. If you're all paranoid about all this real, grown up life stuff, stop putting yourselfs out there. Sure, we as a Country are not where,I beleive, we belong but I've said this a lot--all we can do as individuals is keep our own back yards straight & make sure our voices are heard in the right places.


The question is not whether I put anything on the internet or not or whether I'm doing anything wrong or not.

The question is, does the Fourth Amendment mean what it says or not?

The right of the people to be secure in their persons, houses, papers, and effects, against unreasonable searches and seizures, shall not be violated, and no Warrants shall issue, but upon probable cause, supported by Oath or affirmation, and particularly describing the place to be searched, and the persons or things to be seized.


Do you have a RIGHT to be secure in your "effects" which would cover all private texts and phone conversations.

I don't expect any privacy on this forum because it's an open area which anyone can access. But I do expect any texts I send to my wife to be exclusive between us unless as the 4A states, a warrant has been signed by a judge which names SPECIFICALLY the information being sought by the police.

You can't be half pregnant. You either have a right to privacy or you don't.

Pick a side.


Is the Constitution a living document or original document? Either way it is NOT black and white and left to the interpretation of the reader in its application....Hence picking a "side" would be only based on one's interpretation and not black an white. What if a person chooses to pick bits and pieces from two different interpretations for application? Where do they stand...plausibly the wrong side based on both interpretations? If things were black and white and no gray area...there would inevitably be a side to choose and defend...however, In my opinion (for better or worse depending on the interpreter) the gray is where a lot of people stand! Just curious if you could answer the questions posed here without being defensive, and at face value?
Last edited by Northern Maine on Thu Dec 06, 2012 7:54 am, edited 1 time in total.
Northern Maine
 
Stove/Furnace Make: CENTRAL Boiler CL-5648
Stove/Furnace Model: CL-5648

Re: Things like this don't happen in the land of the free, ...

PostBy: Northern Maine On: Thu Dec 06, 2012 7:49 am

Rwalker wrote:I have steered clear of this thread for many reasons. First and foremost is I am quite tired of talking about it and I am just focused on getting ready to handle what ever comes down the line at us. However, this whole thing has me a bit concerned.

On one hand, I agree with guys like Freetown Fred, if you aren't doing anything wrong, then you have nothing to worry about. On the other hand, I believe in our freedoms as Americans. Our Amendments. Our rights. Rights that my grandfather fought for in cold, wet trenches 10' away from Germans trying like hell to kill him. He didnt do that so our government could read our every email, text message, and listen in on our phone calls. My grandfather is probably rolling over in his grave over that!

I dont think a text I send to my wife should be allowed to be saved and stored in some massive database. I dont think an email I send to my mom should be either. I dont think a phone call I make should be recorded. Should they be scanned and looked at for key phrases? Sure...certain words should tip them off and allow them to dig deeper, but just a conversation between me and my wife that is PERSONAL if you get my drift, should be no one's f*cking business but mine.

I guess what bothers me the most about all of this is so many of the nuts out there that do the terrible crimes, the mass shootings, the car bombings, so many of them blog and Facebook about it for weeks before they uncork. No one ever seems to catch it and stop it. If they are really concerned about it, then they should be scanning for those types of things, not reading text messages about what my wife is wearing to bed tonight or where we are going fishing when the weather turns.

Kind of reminds me of the movie Minority Report with Tom Cruise...

It is unfortunate that things that are designed to keep us safe or help us in one way or another, always end up harming us in the end.

"As far as his own life was concerned, one thing seemed quite clear. 'I made one great mistake in my life,' he said to Linus Pauling, who spent an hour with him on the morning of November 11, 1954, '...when I signed the letter to President Roosevelt recommending that atom bombs be made; but there was some justification - the danger that the Germans would make them.'".

Ronald Clark, Einstein: The Life and Times, pg. 620.


:yes: :clap: Well said!
Northern Maine
 
Stove/Furnace Make: CENTRAL Boiler CL-5648
Stove/Furnace Model: CL-5648

Re: Things like this don't happen in the land of the free, ...

PostBy: Rwalker On: Thu Dec 06, 2012 8:00 am

Are we talking about posting things publically, as in this forum, or are we talking about posting things privately, as in a text message to my wife? To me, they are 2 completely different things. I am all for the government scanning the internet for potential threats, foreign and domestic, but I am not all for them scanning private texts and phone calls. Huge difference between the 2.

And Fred, we can protect ourselves against the private citizen attempting to intercept info. That is why I have things like LifeLock in place. People have tried to steal my identity and my cards several times, just the dangers of all the online shopping I do, but every time someone has tried, LifeLock has stopped them cold. I have had it for 3 years now on the wife and myself, and it is worth every penny IMO. If the private citizen wants to look me up and google earth my house and show up with the intent on doing me harm, I am confident that they will have decided they have chosen the wrong house right about the time the alarms start going off and the bullets start flying.

But the governemnt? We are powerless to their reach. Every firearm you buy is has a serial number in your name. What if one day they decide to knock on every door and say they are there to collect? http://www.ammoland.com/2012/08/09/chin ... z2EGwFHILu

Bending here or there on one freedom lends to bending on all of them. That isn't gloom and doom my friend, that is reality. Soon the only way to maintain any sense of privacy within your own home will be to ride a letter to town on horseback...
Rwalker
 
Stove/Furnace Make: Hitzer
Stove/Furnace Model: 983

Re: Things like this don't happen in the land of the free, ...

PostBy: KLook On: Thu Dec 06, 2012 8:38 am

I do not know why some of you attack jpete about the Constitution. He obviously knows the document and explains repeatedly that it is written in PLAIN english so as to be read without debate by common people. Changes in technology do not effect whatsoever the limitations it places on the GOVERNMENT. Not you as individuals. It is the Ten commandments of what a gov. CANNOT do to you based on the history of what the effects are when they do. You cannot give up some part of them. If the Constitution was updated every ten years say, what sane people would vote to give up the basic rights guaranteed by each one if taken one at a time and explained and debated? The answer to that scares me as much as this last election and what has transpired since in the gov. Just look at the new post about bailing our Detroit and think about her mental state.

Kevin

To ask him to answer a question when he has quoted the appropriate Constitutional law pertaining to that freedom is silly. And riding a horse to town still subjects you to search ans seizure.
KLook
 
Stoker Coal Boiler: Harman VF 3000
Coal Size/Type: rice, bagged, Blaschak
Stove/Furnace Make: Harman (Back In Maine)
Stove/Furnace Model: VF 3000