How to bring in outside air to my Kineo base burner stove

Re: How to bring in outside air to my Kineo base burner stove

PostBy: Photog200 On: Tue Feb 11, 2014 8:50 am

Lightning wrote:In my opinion running a dedicated source of combustion air would only be needed if the appliance is in a tight confined area. If its going to be a huge effort to plumb it in, I wouldn't worry about it. Normally a house has plenty of air infiltration and a stove only uses a tiny fraction of it for combustion.

Just my two cents worth.. :)


My reasoning for wanting to do this is; the house is not air tight (35 year old manufactured home) and I figure that it is pulling in cold air where ever there is a leak. I am trying to heat those areas, not cool them down. If I could tell the stove where to take the cold air in from and warm it up a bit, it should not be pulling in cold air from those other areas. Make sense?

Randy
Photog200
 
Baseburners & Antiques: Colonial Clarion cook stove, & Kineo #15 base heater
Coal Size/Type: Blaschak Chestnut
Other Heating: Electric Baseboard

Re: How to bring in outside air to my Kineo base burner stove

PostBy: Photog200 On: Tue Feb 11, 2014 9:08 am

Sunny Boy wrote:Easy way to tell if the house is "too tight", does the stove have good draft ? If it has good draft all the way to max output, then the house is not too tight, ....... but if you see the sliding glass door bowing in, . . :D

If it's marginal, then you will need to do something - especially when you move the Clarion into the house too.

Being the devil's advocate, . . you then have to determine if installing an outside air source will at anytime over compensate and bring in more cold air because of the house's stack affect ? I had that happen using the ash pit of my fire place as an outside air feed. To control it, I had to make a linkage and control rod that allowed me to set the right amount of ash pit door opening so it wouldn't be too much opening. And, I had to make sure to close it when the fireplace was not in use, or the living room floor got cold as the house's stack affect pulled in cold air.

Very often, when this is done, the outside air source is attached directly to the air inlet of the heating appliance, so that it doesn't leak cold air into the living space, or the heating appliance is in a sealed area. Not sure how you would do that in your situation.

I had to do this when I built the oil-fired radiant floor heat system in my shop. I didn't want shop dust/fumes getting to the oil burner so I built a closet around it and put an air inlet duct under and up against the stove pipe that then extended down near floor level of the cabinet so it would not bleed off warm cabinet air when the burner was off. The exhaust going up the pipe helped heat the incoming air and reduced the chance of oil burner condensation.

I wonder if there is some way to jacket the stove pipe and use that as the incoming air ?

Paul



Paul

I knew I could count on everyone for some great ideas, thank you all for your input. My plans would include a shut off valve in the copper tubing that brings in the cold air so as to regulate the amount that comes in or to even shut it off in off seasons. I was looking at the stove last night and was even thinking about putting in risers of copper tubing that came up behind the stove so as not to see them. They would collect the heat radiating off the stove before going back down and into the platform and then into the stove.

Paul, my current set up has moderate amount of draft, this is why I started to think about what could be causing this. My chimney is a 8" SS metalbestos, insulated one. It is only about 12' high from the ceiling thimble. I then have a reducer down to 6" for the stove pipe from the stove. I thought about adding another length of pipe, but it is already well above the roof line. When I have the dampers wide open, I only get about .05 or .06 on the manometer. If windy sometimes up to .10 or .12. I have been running the stove at .03 on the manometer otherwise the mpd would be almost open. (yes, I have CO detectors :D ) I am thinking that bringing in outside air might help the draft situation and also help to keep the house warmer (by not bringing in cold air from all parts of the house where there are leaks) and burn less coal at the same time. Let me know if you think I am way off base in my thinking.
Randy
Photog200
 
Baseburners & Antiques: Colonial Clarion cook stove, & Kineo #15 base heater
Coal Size/Type: Blaschak Chestnut
Other Heating: Electric Baseboard

Re: How to bring in outside air to my Kineo base burner stove

PostBy: waldo lemieux On: Tue Feb 11, 2014 9:09 am

Does the stove have a back pipe? If so you could cut a pipe into that . If you had a raised hearth you could pipe it in underneath and use a register boot and grill underneath the air intake??????
waldo lemieux
 
Stove/Furnace Make: efm
Stove/Furnace Model: s-20

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Re: How to bring in outside air to my Kineo base burner stove

PostBy: Lightning On: Tue Feb 11, 2014 9:16 am

Yes sir, I understand your logic. It gets kind of complicated with factoring in the neutral pressure plane in the home. Long story short, at least some if not most of the air that the stove uses, is air that would have left the house somewhere else, but instead is rerouted thru the stove. The result is that the stove doesn't contribute to very much, if any, additional air infiltration rendering a dedicated air inlet not very effective.

In a situation where there is already a moderate amount of air infiltration, the dedicated combustion air source could actually invite in more air for the total than without it.

If your stove is having a problem keeping draft, a dedicated air source might help. Other than that, I don't think it would be successful slowing air infiltration in other parts of the home. :)
Last edited by Lightning on Tue Feb 11, 2014 5:55 pm, edited 1 time in total.
Lightning
 
Hand Fed Coal Furnace: Clayton 1537G
Coal Size/Type: Nut Size / White Ash

Re: How to bring in outside air to my Kineo base burner stove

PostBy: Lightning On: Tue Feb 11, 2014 9:20 am

I'm just trying to save you the effort if its a difficult task to pipe in the outside air.. That's all I got. :)
Lightning
 
Hand Fed Coal Furnace: Clayton 1537G
Coal Size/Type: Nut Size / White Ash

Re: How to bring in outside air to my Kineo base burner stove

PostBy: titleist1 On: Tue Feb 11, 2014 9:27 am

Photog200 wrote:My reasoning for wanting to do this is; the house is not air tight (35 year old manufactured home) and I figure that it is pulling in cold air where ever there is a leak. I am trying to heat those areas, not cool them down. If I could tell the stove where to take the cold air in from and warm it up a bit, it should not be pulling in cold air from those other areas. Make sense?


This makes sense to me and is the result I saw running a pipe from outside to the combustion fan. Your stove vs. my stoker may make things a bit different, but the idea is the same. The back of the basement was where it connected to a crawlspace is where the makeup air was coming from and it cooled that end of the basement noticeably. This in turn cooled the upstairs floor. With the pipe it makes the basement warmer and the floor warmer.

eta...my set up is in the basement and doesnt have to look nice like your hearth area so it was very easy for me to run 4" pvc through the basement window panel right to the combustion fan. you have much bigger decorating issues to resolve!
Last edited by titleist1 on Tue Feb 11, 2014 9:37 am, edited 1 time in total.
titleist1
 
Hot Air Coal Stoker Stove: Harman Mag Stoker (old style) one in basement, one in workshop
Hand Fed Coal Stove: Harman Mark III on standby for long power outages
Coal Size/Type: Rice/Anthracite; Nut/Anthracite

Re: How to bring in outside air to my Kineo base burner stove

PostBy: Lightning On: Tue Feb 11, 2014 9:31 am

I researched this whole dilemma a few months back when the whole barometric damper vs air infiltration thing cropped up lol. My head nearly blew up but I'm ok now... :lol:
Lightning
 
Hand Fed Coal Furnace: Clayton 1537G
Coal Size/Type: Nut Size / White Ash

Re: How to bring in outside air to my Kineo base burner stove

PostBy: Sunny Boy On: Tue Feb 11, 2014 10:28 am

Photog200 wrote:I knew I could count on everyone for some great ideas, thank you all for your input. My plans would include a shut off valve in the copper tubing that brings in the cold air so as to regulate the amount that comes in or to even shut it off in off seasons. I was looking at the stove last night and was even thinking about putting in risers of copper tubing that came up behind the stove so as not to see them. They would collect the heat radiating off the stove before going back down and into the platform and then into the stove.

Paul, my current set up has moderate amount of draft, this is why I started to think about what could be causing this. My chimney is a 8" SS metalbestos, insulated one. It is only about 12' high from the ceiling thimble. I then have a reducer down to 6" for the stove pipe from the stove. I thought about adding another length of pipe, but it is already well above the roof line. When I have the dampers wide open, I only get about .05 or .06 on the manometer. If windy sometimes up to .10 or .12. I have been running the stove at .03 on the manometer otherwise the mpd would be almost open. (yes, I have CO detectors :D ) I am thinking that bringing in outside air might help the draft situation and also help to keep the house warmer (by not bringing in cold air from all parts of the house where there are leaks) and burn less coal at the same time. Let me know if you think I am way off base in my thinking.
Randy


Yeah, that sounds low. I can get .09 - .1 with my small firebox range in indirect mode when just the MPD is fully open. With all dampers wide open, it'll go to about .14.

Another easy test to see if an air feed would help increase draft is to crack open a window nearest the stove - about 1/2 inch should do. Then see if you can get the draft to go above that .05-.06. If you can't, I doubt hooking up an outside air inlet won't help in that respect.

Paul
Sunny Boy
 
Hand Fed Coal Boiler: Anthracite Industrial, domestic hot water heater
Baseburners & Antiques: Glenwood range 208, # 6 base heater, 2 Modern Oak 118.
Coal Size/Type: Nuts !
Other Heating: Oil &electric plenum furnace

Re: How to bring in outside air to my Kineo base burner stove

PostBy: Sunny Boy On: Tue Feb 11, 2014 10:36 am

Have you tried putting thermometers near where you think the cold air can come in and see if running the stove makes those areas colder, or warmer, . . or no change at all ?

The stack affect of the house may still make those areas leak just as much ????

Speaking of cracking open a window, . . Before going to all that work, what about running a test by using a cheap dryer vent kit that is temporarily duct taped into an open window, and lead to near the stove's base, to see what changes it makes ?

The kits are not expensive.

Paul
Sunny Boy
 
Hand Fed Coal Boiler: Anthracite Industrial, domestic hot water heater
Baseburners & Antiques: Glenwood range 208, # 6 base heater, 2 Modern Oak 118.
Coal Size/Type: Nuts !
Other Heating: Oil &electric plenum furnace

Re: How to bring in outside air to my Kineo base burner stove

PostBy: nortcan On: Tue Feb 11, 2014 1:46 pm

Most of the houses have lot of air infiltrations and an outside cold air feed is not so important. It can also rub some heat to pre-heat the cold air. In new or super insulated/air tight houses it could help to have fresh air run to the stove but also for the peoples living in that house. All new house in Qc should have an air exchanger to bring mechanically fresh air Inside the house.
nortcan
 
Stove/Furnace Make: Stuart,Peterson/ Grander
Stove/Furnace Model: Sunnyside/ Golden Bride

Re: How to bring in outside air to my Kineo base burner stove

PostBy: Photog200 On: Wed Feb 12, 2014 9:50 pm

I did a little test tonight with the stove. I have a window about 7' from the stove and opened it about 2 inches. The manometer immediately went from .03 to .06 without touching anything on the stove. That tells me what I was suspecting, that it was having to pull air from other parts of the house. I have been doing a lot of work to tighten up the house, and I think it has been working. I think I am going to try my idea out when I get to re-design my hearth area. Will let everyone know how it turns out.

Randy
Photog200
 
Baseburners & Antiques: Colonial Clarion cook stove, & Kineo #15 base heater
Coal Size/Type: Blaschak Chestnut
Other Heating: Electric Baseboard

Re: How to bring in outside air to my Kineo base burner stove

PostBy: Lightning On: Thu Feb 13, 2014 5:18 am

I believe the test results show that you lowered the neutral pressure plane in the house by opening the window. The strengthening of negative pressure in the stove would be reflected on the mano when the positive pressure outside it is increased by opening the window. It doesn't prove the stove is pulling cold air from other parts of the house.

I know its confusing :? ... I don't like it either :lol: ...
I just wanted to share my view on what your observations meant.

I think the mano reading change you showed by opening the window proves that your tightening of the house has been very effective though!! :D
Lightning
 
Hand Fed Coal Furnace: Clayton 1537G
Coal Size/Type: Nut Size / White Ash

Re: How to bring in outside air to my Kineo base burner stove

PostBy: Sunny Boy On: Thu Feb 13, 2014 6:10 am

Lightning wrote:I believe the test results show that you lowered the neutral pressure plane in the house by opening the window. The strengthening of negative pressure in the stove would be reflected on the mano when the positive pressure outside it is increased by opening the window. It doesn't prove the stove is pulling cold air from other parts of the house.

I know its confusing :? ... I don't like it either :lol: ...
I just wanted to share my view on what your observations meant.

I think the mano reading change you showed by opening the window proves that your tightening of the house has been very effective though!! :D



At the other end of the spectrum from Randy's house is more like my 122 year old, leaky Victorian. Whenever someone opens the back door, which is about four feet to the right of my kitchen range, the mano doesn't budge.

Air is lazy ! It doesn't want to move easily. If the stove has to pull make-up air from small leaks that are far from the stove, that resistance affects the stove. That's likely what the mano jump showed.

Paul
Sunny Boy
 
Hand Fed Coal Boiler: Anthracite Industrial, domestic hot water heater
Baseburners & Antiques: Glenwood range 208, # 6 base heater, 2 Modern Oak 118.
Coal Size/Type: Nuts !
Other Heating: Oil &electric plenum furnace

Re: How to bring in outside air to my Kineo base burner stove

PostBy: titleist1 On: Thu Feb 13, 2014 7:51 am

Photog200 wrote:I have a window about 7' from the stove and opened it about 2 inches. The manometer immediately went from .03 to .06 without touching anything on the stove.


Photog200 wrote:I have been doing a lot of work to tighten up the house, and I think it has been working.


I think what you experienced is similar to what I have read on here over the years from quite a few folks that haven't been able to get the heat out of their stove they expected and/or struggled to get a good draft going. Their houses have been on the tight side or the boiler room where they have the unit is tight and it was starved for air. Cracking the window or putting in an air supply showed immediate improvement for them too.

The good news is that your work sealing up the air leaks seems to have worked well and you are in a position to control the combustion air supply! 8-)
titleist1
 
Hot Air Coal Stoker Stove: Harman Mag Stoker (old style) one in basement, one in workshop
Hand Fed Coal Stove: Harman Mark III on standby for long power outages
Coal Size/Type: Rice/Anthracite; Nut/Anthracite

Re: How to bring in outside air to my Kineo base burner stove

PostBy: Photog200 On: Fri Feb 14, 2014 9:03 am

I want to thank everyone for their advice, I will take every comment into consideration as I continue to do research. It will be some time before I get to do anything with the hearth area due to some family issues and other projects in line first.

Randy
Photog200
 
Baseburners & Antiques: Colonial Clarion cook stove, & Kineo #15 base heater
Coal Size/Type: Blaschak Chestnut
Other Heating: Electric Baseboard

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