Cold Air Return. Do I Need It?

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larryfoster
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Post by larryfoster » Fri. Nov. 21, 2014 9:52 am

I apologize if this is the wrong place for this.
And appreciate, in advance, all suggestions

I have a Hot Blast 1557.
It's way bigger than I need but it was the only one they had on end of season clearance at Tractor Supply and I had a coupon.
It should cook me out of my house but doesn't.

I live in a relatively small single story; under 1000 sq.ft.
I had some initial issues because I wasn't getting all the ashes out so my fire wasn't hot enough but have that resolved.
I don't have a thermometer so I'm going on look and feel to determine this.

US Stove says that I must have return air and it can't be connected to the existing propane furnace duct.
I do have the warm air connected to the ducts work.

I have the stove in a fairly open basement.
I've been leaving my basement door open on the idea that the heavier cold air will go down.

Possibly related.
My pipes aren't terribly warm coming out of the furnace and my flue is not too hard to touch.
I have a manual and barometric damper and a steel relined chimney.


 
franco b
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Post by franco b » Fri. Nov. 21, 2014 11:46 am

If your open basement door is providing even enough heating, then you don't need it.

 
larryfoster
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Other Heating: Propane Kerosene

Post by larryfoster » Fri. Nov. 21, 2014 12:17 pm

Thanks, franco.

My problem is that I can't make my house HOT like my wife would like it and was wondering if the lack of a return could be the problem.

I may have other issues I need to figure out.
How warm should the pipes be supplying warm air to the house?
Should the flue exiting the furnace get hot enough that I should be uncomfortable when touching it?

 
franco b
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Post by franco b » Fri. Nov. 21, 2014 1:00 pm

It all starts with the fire and how healthy it is. Are you able to build a full bed of burning coal to near the top of the firebrick? You will need some extra tools to get rid of ash that clogs the grate. Some have reported that with that stove there are spots that can allow air to bypass the grate instead of going up through it. Those spots have to be blocked. Is your draft good, do you get smoke or smell when opening the load door?

Member Lightning is the expert with those stoves so click on his name and read about his experiences. "Diary of a Clayton" and others. His posts should answer all of your questions. Put "hotblast " in the search box also.

You are right that the stove should be more than enough to heat your house. Getting that fire hot enough should drive you out. It seems you have a weak fire that is barely burning.

Whoops, I just noticed you are using bit coal which is another whole story to properly burn.

 
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michaelanthony
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Post by michaelanthony » Fri. Nov. 21, 2014 1:15 pm

You are right about this stove's ability to heat your house without a problem. Are you loading the stove up to the top of the fire bricks?
Also, with the stove running and the basement door open walk around the house with some incense or :smoke: and follow it, see if it tracks down the steps. You may need to disconnect a return duct in the coolest part of the home, and if you could have 5 or 6 ft of duct hang from that cold air vent straight down to the floor because the warm air from your coal furnace will block cold air from falling through the vent. The same could happen on the stairs to the basement, and only a smoke test will tell you. For warm air to fill the house, cold air must be removed and that is why your cold air return ducts are larger than the warm air ducts. :idea:

 
larryfoster
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Post by larryfoster » Fri. Nov. 21, 2014 1:50 pm

Thanks again franco and micheal for the good tips.

I do get smoke sometimes when I open the door. Right now, the manual damper is completely open.
I can get a bed of coals but it seems to build a crust on top that I stir with a poker.
Lots of coals under but when I stir, the flame really comes on.

I do load the stove to the top of the bricks.

I'll try the incense or smoke trick.
If I disconnect the returns in the cold rooms, will that affect the gas furnace?

 
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michaelanthony
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Post by michaelanthony » Fri. Nov. 21, 2014 2:12 pm

larryfoster wrote:Thanks again franco and micheal for the good tips.

I do get smoke sometimes when I open the door. Right now, the manual damper is completely open.
I can get a bed of coals but it seems to build a crust on top that I stir with a poker.
Lots of coals under but when I stir, the flame really comes on.

I do load the stove to the top of the bricks.

I'll try the incense or smoke trick.
If I disconnect the returns in the cold rooms, will that affect the gas furnace?
Yes disconnecting any vents will effect the propain furnace. How air tight is the basement? Shake not stir this will hurt your fire, Poke the ash from under the grates with a long piece of re-bar or similar with a 90* 2 or 3 inches from the end.
Can you turn on your propain blower without the gas furnace firing?
Pumping heated air from the coal stove to the return vents is best if the propain furnace is being used and if it fires the air coming into the gas furnace is preheated and the gas furnace won't fire very long. You can also distribute the hot air from the coal furnace with the gas furnace blower using the vents. Be careful as my oil furnace blower is easily turned on with a flip of the limit switch from auto to manual with the thermostat shut off and I am not sure if gas furnaces run the same.


 
larryfoster
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Post by larryfoster » Fri. Nov. 21, 2014 2:28 pm

My basement isn't very air tight.

I have an old poker about 5' long from the old coal furnace that has been gone for 40 years.

Not sure if this is what you're saying but I shake the grates every time I add coal.
I poke the crust on top to break it up because it doesn't seem to want to burn. I get fire immediately.
The coals are hot under the crust but the crust won't burn unless I break it up.

I would have to figure out how to turn on the gas blower. I don't know how right now.

I have the coal furnace piped into two holes I cut into the warm air ducts.

I mostly have the air on the ash door wide open.
On the top door, I've tried all kinds of things.
Someone told me that doesn't matter much

 
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michaelanthony
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Post by michaelanthony » Fri. Nov. 21, 2014 2:34 pm

Ash door wide open is not good, the fire can and will run away on you, You may have a blockage in your flu if you are not getting the stove up too temp. Please read this thread:
Smoke Coming From Stove
jared43758 is also burning bituminous.

 
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Berlin
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Post by Berlin » Fri. Nov. 21, 2014 2:34 pm

If your basement is very leaky this is part of the problem. Creating additional negative pressure in the basement by producing a lot of hot air down there increases infiltration which substantially reduces system efficiency. I've seen homes with basement returns require 20-30,000 BTU's more than they should need to heat the house, not to mention it's not terribly safe. Not having a return from the living space and leaving the basement door open also reduces your draft.

High coking coal that crusts over as well as poor draft or air escaping around the fuel bed cause low heat output as well. You should also have an 8" dia. stack and connecting pipe with hand-firing bit coal, the size on the hot blast collar is irrellevant. If your SS liner is 6" it can fill with soot quickly and dramatically reduce draft as well as peak cfm flow also allowing smoke spillage from the loading door while reloading.

You can and should tie your return air to your existing system, but, it should be done in this way: Cut into the return drop and slide a piece of sheet metal in OR use your existing filter slot and cut a piece of sheet steel to fit nicely and slide it in in place of your filter. You could also do this in the supply plenum if you choose (if you have a circuit board in the blower cabinet). Then connect your blowers to the return air trunk or drop before the blocking plate, make sure you have adequate flow - you probably want at least 16x8 duct on your blower return. Make sure your propane furnace is shut off when you have the plate in place. cut another slot for a baffel in the return drop for your hotblast that you can insert when using the propane furnace.

 
larryfoster
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Other Heating: Propane Kerosene

Post by larryfoster » Fri. Nov. 21, 2014 2:53 pm

Michael, I may have miscommunicated.
The ash door is only open to shake the grates and empty the ashes.
Only the air intake is open.

I'll check the link on smoke

Berlin, if I do the metal plate thing, do I understand that the propane furnace would no longer be a backup?

I'm sorry to be so dumb.

I could get one drop separate from the propane returns if that would solve this.
It would be almost near the center of the house

 
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Berlin
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Post by Berlin » Fri. Nov. 21, 2014 3:45 pm

It would still be a "backup", but it would not be automatic, you would have to slide out one plate and slide in another, flip a switch, and then you'd be on propane. It can be done automatically with zone dampers, but that won't be the simplest, least costly route.

 
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Post by davidmcbeth3 » Fri. Nov. 21, 2014 4:20 pm

larryfoster wrote:<snip>

I'm sorry to be so dumb.
Why, were you on the team that sent that probe to the comet?

 
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Post by Lightning » Fri. Nov. 21, 2014 4:47 pm

Do you need a cold air return? Short answer, yes. It will make your heating system much more efficient. Even though you have a way for air to get back to the basement, air that is being pulled from your basement floor is likely much cooler than air that would be coming down from above thru a duct. With your current arrangement, the furnace must work that much harder to heat the air for your living space.

 
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Post by davidmcbeth3 » Fri. Nov. 21, 2014 4:50 pm

Lightning wrote:Do you need a cold air return? Short answer, yes. It will make your heating system much more efficient. Even though you have a way for air to get back to the basement, air that is being pulled from your basement floor is likely much cooler than air that would be coming down from above thru a duct. With your current arrangement, the furnace must work that much harder to heat the air for your living space.
and the ductwork take out the cold air from the rooms .. hence "cold air" return


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