Crane 404 and Clinkers

 
ddahlgren
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Post by ddahlgren » Sun. Jan. 25, 2015 1:27 am

Ok it has been just shy of 3 months burning coal with the Crane 404. Lose the fire about every 2 to 3 weeks due to clinkers that seem impossible to clear. Lit it this afternoon late and gave it a rather useless shake it seems to do nearly nothing other than make some noise. Bouncing the grates up and down does not seem like a very good way to get ash out. Did a refill shake and slice and stove has been 200 degrees colder with all the same settings down to 300 for a very long while from 500 and house cooling off. The grates bright orange with burning coal. Is it possible to end up with ash in the center of the coal bed yet burning coal on the outside? Sort of like an egg with the center dead and the shell burning? When I slice the grates not afraid to dump a pound or two of burning coal to make sure ash is all gone but if it is in the center what is the point?


 
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blrman07
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Post by blrman07 » Sun. Jan. 25, 2015 7:17 am

From what I have seen of the firebox of the Crane 404 and the Vig2310 they look oddly similar. I get exactly the same thing your talking about. :mad:

I can shake my grates all I want and all it will do is as you say bounce the burning coal. I take a LONG bread knife and I slice upwards between the grates knocking the ash out about once a day. I get 10 times more ash out than just bouncing the grates 100 pulls each day. If I don't knife upwards in the grates, I will ash up and the stove will start going out within 4 days. It will be almost out by the end of a week.

 
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VigIIPeaBurner
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Post by VigIIPeaBurner » Sun. Jan. 25, 2015 7:49 am

If you are getting hard crunchy ash that does (or nearly does) form clinkers, you are likely burning too hot. In a hand fed the ash should burn to nearly all powder. If not getting mostly powder, you're burning at or over the fusion temperature for the coal you're using. Slicing from below can accelerate the overburn in the bottom zone of the firebed. By slicing upward, you're fluffing the bottom of the bed and increasing the air contact which can cause the bottom of the burning coal bed to get more air, burn too hot, and reach the ash fusion temperature. You want the air to move evenly up thru the firebox.

I don't know if this procedure is possible with the Crane 404. It works well with the Vigilant 2310.
  • Using a rod or long piece of flatstock, like this tool that came with my 2310....
  • ...aim the tool from over the edge of the top of the grate at the valley formed in the center of the hanging shaker grates.
  • With the 2310, insert it here and poke down thru the ash breaking up any agglomerated fused ash. Start shaking. This style grate is not aggressive, it must be moved more times than a rocker grate. This is a much cleaner technique than slicing from below and you don't disturb the fire bed, and risk reaching the ash fusion temperature.

 
ddahlgren
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Post by ddahlgren » Sun. Jan. 25, 2015 8:08 am

I am starting to think it might be better to have a planned shut down and clean out so I don't end up with a firebox full of clinkers to dig out. I have a poker that is bent 90 degrees at the end with a 3 inch piece sticking up and the longest I can get between the grates and ash pan. I also have another one that I poke down with the top. Part of the problem is the wide range of temperatures. To big for a 45 degree afternoon and too small for a 5 degree night.

 
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VigIIPeaBurner
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Post by VigIIPeaBurner » Sun. Jan. 25, 2015 8:17 am

ddahlgren wrote:I am starting to think it might be better to have a planned shut down and clean out so I don't end up with a firebox full of clinkers to dig out. I have a poker that is bent 90 degrees at the end with a 3 inch piece sticking up and the longest I can get between the grates and ash pan. I also have another one that I poke down with the top. Part of the problem is the wide range of temperatures. To big for a 45 degree afternoon and too small for a 5 degree night.
A thorough clean out today is probably a good idea. Deep cold spell is on schedule to arrive in a few days. After you clean out, try to poke only from the top and don't fluff up the firebed from below. Try to poke only in the ash layer and stay out of the burning bed of coal. Unfortunately, if the stove is too small for your needs, pushing it will likely lead to ash fusion. I have learned that my stove is a bit too small for my needs too. Although I've pushed the stove to do the job, I use my oil furnace to meet my heating needs when it gets as cold as it will this week.

 
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coalvet
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Post by coalvet » Sun. Jan. 25, 2015 8:27 am

With my 404 I use the same type of poker you have and I slice front to back between each grate section and I don't get the build up you're describing. It could be you are burning a lot hotter than I am. It's normal when you do finally clean out the fire pot to find clinkers and clumps of dead coal. You're right the shaker system is pretty useless.

 
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Post by ddahlgren » Sun. Jan. 25, 2015 8:51 am

coalvet wrote:With my 404 I use the same type of poker you have and I slice front to back between each grate section and I don't get the build up you're describing. It could be you are burning a lot hotter than I am. It's normal when you do finally clean out the fire pot to find clinkers and clumps of dead coal. You're right the shaker system is pretty useless.
You might have been the person that had a picture of their poker and I copied it. I would rather do the clean reload drill than run the furnace much. If I run straight Blaschack I might be better off as well.


 
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windyhill4.2
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Post by windyhill4.2 » Sun. Jan. 25, 2015 9:22 am

dd,I posted the pic of my poker that is working so well for me,i only poke/slice from below. I guess I am too stupid to have problems with my 404, I lit it Nov.10 & still going,no issues. We generally run it between 300*-550*,only occasionally over 600*. We do not depend on this as our only heat source as our coal boiler is capable of doing the whole job but only comes on duty in our house when the t-stat calls for it.Our 404 is doing a lot of cooking & keeping the living area WARM.

 
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Post by Rob R. » Sun. Jan. 25, 2015 9:43 am

Coal source can have a lot to do with it.

 
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Post by ddahlgren » Sun. Jan. 25, 2015 12:17 pm

windyhill4.2 wrote:dd,I posted the pic of my poker that is working so well for me,i only poke/slice from below. I guess I am too stupid to have problems with my 404, I lit it Nov.10 & still going,no issues. We generally run it between 300*-550*,only occasionally over 600*. We do not depend on this as our only heat source as our coal boiler is capable of doing the whole job but only comes on duty in our house when the t-stat calls for it.Our 404 is doing a lot of cooking & keeping the living area WARM.
No you are smarter than me to not have the problems I am having. My house is 1874 and has single pane windows and can not afford storms as they are a custom size and the historic folks want them in wood painted. The thought of custom thermal ones with custom wood frames that exactly match the originals is out of the question. 500 ft from the water and when the wind kicks up it gets ugly quick. The walls only 20 insulated and no vapor barrier as the 2 rooms insulated are kitchen and bath and wanted those to breathe to be honest. My big problem is telling the difference between a clinker or coal while burning, just can't feel the difference so lack of talent on my part. If I could afford it a small BB might be ideal if all reports of being able to turn way down and turn it up for a lot of heat when needed. I realize it is a space heater but sometimes you what you have and can afford to do.

 
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windyhill4.2
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Post by windyhill4.2 » Sun. Jan. 25, 2015 1:02 pm

dd,trade houses ?? Ours is a 1972 mobile home 12 x60 ,2x3 walls,no insulation,crappy windows that leak like a sieve & we get lots of wind here,our whole house is about 24x60,previous owner added additions to the trailer,2x4,poorly constructed,old mobile home windows used for the additions,our living room is a non-insulated 12x22 concrete slab on top of 3 rows of exposed blocks on the North & east side. This room is a heat sink, the heat just sinks away ! No way will we try to totally heat our whole house to reasonable temps with just this little stove.

 
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Post by ddahlgren » Sun. Jan. 25, 2015 1:22 pm

Yikes you have a bigger challenge than I do.

 
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windyhill4.2
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Post by windyhill4.2 » Sun. Jan. 25, 2015 1:28 pm

ddahlgren wrote:Yikes you have a bigger challenge than I do.
BUT,we also have the EFM520 coal boiler that could handle the whole job,with this 404,the boiler just fills in the heat as needed.The boiler does 100% for the rental trailer & our shop + the hot water for both houses. We feel very fortunate to be able to have the coal boiler & the 404,it allows us to have a heated house with very WARM living area. :D

 
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Post by ddahlgren » Tue. Jan. 27, 2015 2:46 am

Ok wondering if I accidently learned something about my stove tonight. I was going to top off the coal in the very early am as I woke up for the 1 am pee call so took a look at the stove. I looked at the shaker and said 'why bother kidding myself' and went straight for the poker from below. Lots of ash that looked like sand and a couple small harder pieces a few jammed between the grates. I was able to go 4 inches into the bottom of the coal bed with little in the way of burning coal. Sprinkled a scoop or two of coal on top with ash pan door open. When that was burning well gave it a shake and coal dropped so added more.

So coal burning gurus riddle me this, tell me if it makes any sense. Still being on my training wheels and have only seen pictures here and my stove it seems like there are 3 basic types of grates. Rotating that seem like they would chew ash and any clinkers sending them down to ash pan having weigh of top pushing down to send ashes to bottom. Sliding that grate the ashes like a cheese grater and burning coal pushes down and the ones I have that move vertically and from what all I can figure out agitates the coal bed bouncing the heavier burning coal to the bottom but let little ash out so it gets trapped mixed in with burning coal. I am thinking my clinker problem is the trapped ash I did not get out so poke and slice until I find a little bit of burning coal then top off when burning shake to get it to fall to grates then add more as needed. Does this seem to make sense or am I lost as usual?

 
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Post by coalder » Tue. Jan. 27, 2015 5:00 am

Rob R. wrote:Coal source can have a lot to do with it.
I am experiencing pretty much the same thing in my Harman. And was wondering what the cause could be. Last year I burnt Blaschak, and didn't seem to have any issues. This year I'm burning Reading nut; which is loaded with fines. Some of the clinkers are larger than a baseball. The only other thing I'm doing is poking and raking more from the top. Could it just be the product?
Jim


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