Coal Dilemma

lamina1982 · Post by **lamina1982** » Wed. Jan. 28, 2015 9:59 am

So new to coal this year and got stove in oct so was late to coal buying season...ive got a keystoker 90...ive made a few posts thus far.
...anyways my first ton was kimmels from tsc..some bags more wet than others and frozen, but 40# bags frozen no biggy just drop on ground breaks it up and I rotate 5 gallon buckets with holesin them and a pan underneath to catch water near stove to dry it out.
So I get 2 tons coal yesterday from dealer that sold me stove n previously had dry coal. Being a cheapo I get 100# bags...pretty much in a feed type sack. So I hauled the 2 tons into garage by hand and started to regret the 100# bags...all seemed well. Now today I go to get some coal and now I have 2 tons of 100# frozen solid coal blocks....so guess coal was damp.
So any thoughts on breaking these up without killing my back as this is going to tire very quickly...guess I didnt plan very well on the 100# size. Just looking for easy ideas to break it up and get into buckets.
Thsnks

michaelanthony · Post by **michaelanthony** » Wed. Jan. 28, 2015 10:12 am

Maybe you can put a large plastic tub on the floor in front of the stacked coal, roll a bag into it to break it up and shovel the coal into your 5 gallon buckets??? Just my 2cents.

Post by **franco b** » Wed. Jan. 28, 2015 10:14 am

Use a hand truck and bring a few bags inside to defrost before using. Get an ideal size shovel to lighten up the bags before having to pour into hopper.

Post by **Richard S.** » Wed. Jan. 28, 2015 10:19 am

If you open them up it will dry but very slowly.

lzaharis · Post by **lzaharis** » Wed. Jan. 28, 2015 10:23 am

lamina1982 wrote:So new to coal this year and got stove in Oct. so was late to coal buying season...I've got a Keystoker 90...I've made a few posts thus far.
...anyways my first ton was Kimmels from TSC..some bags more wet than others and frozen, but 40# bags frozen no biggy just drop on ground breaks it up and I rotate 5 gallon buckets with holes in them and a pan underneath to catch water near stove to dry it out.
So I get 2 tons coal yesterday from dealer that sold me stove n previously had dry coal. Being a cheapo I get 100# bags...pretty much in a feed type sack. So I hauled the 2 tons into garage by hand and started to regret the 100# bags...all seemed well. Now today I go to get some coal and now I have 2 tons of 100# frozen solid coal blocks....so guess coal was damp.
So any thoughts on breaking these up without killing my back as this is going to tire very quickly...guess I didn't plan very well on the 100# size. Just looking for easy ideas to break it up and get into buckets.
Thanks

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As NEPA member Sting would say "Depends".

I am sorry to hear about you frozen coal.
My coal dealer stores all his bagged coal indoors.

One thing you could do is park a small salamander space heater in
your open garage for a few hours and get the garage good and warm
after a few hours and the ice will start to melt.

It's better to cover the bagged coal with a tarp to hold the heat
but I don't know whether you piled it along the garage wall etc.

Believe me it wont take you very long to melt the ice in the bags and
heat the garage up and have water on the garage floor.

This is not a good idea if you do not have a floor drain in the garage though
as you will have ice otherwise.

If your car is on there you will want to move it outside for a day or so
unless you have a very, very large garage space.

That is about the only way your going to solve this with brute force
if the garage is in the unheated/cold interior portion of your home.

Kerosene space heaters come in very handy and I have used them
almost the year round warming up trucks, firewood processors-BOOOO!!!!!!!!
tractors, snow blowers,mowers and chain saws with finicky engines etc.

davidmcbeth3 · Post by **davidmcbeth3** » Wed. Jan. 28, 2015 10:54 am

Who gets 100 # bags? I get 50# bags -- that's the limit of weight for me ... after all I too move the stuff around and I don't like using a hand truck ... I can put 2 40# bags on my shoulders but a single 100#-er ? Ouch !

I'm king of El Cheapo ! How much did you pay ?

I have a large metal tub that I used to use for cleaning -- 'bout 42" in diameter, 12" high .. I would put that by the stove and put a few bags (poking holes to allow drainage) in the tub . Then move them to another area near stove to complete the dry-out.

Lucky you only have a few tons to putz with.

I assume your garage is not attached? If it is, another option is to just open the door leading to it and let the stuff de-ice and move into the dwelling. That should be a nice clean operation...prepare for a mess. So it gets down to 60F in the house ... for a day or two.

SMITTY · Post by **SMITTY** » Wed. Jan. 28, 2015 11:02 am

I always have around 8 bags open, give or take, at any given time - I slice a corner off, open it up wide, and let them dry. The top will dry out, but the base will still be sopping wet .

My Blaschak bags this season are the wettest I've ever seen in 10 years of burning .

davidmcbeth3 · Post by **davidmcbeth3** » Wed. Jan. 28, 2015 11:07 am

SMITTY wrote:I always have around 8 bags open, give or take, at any given time - I slice a corner off, open it up wide, and let them dry. The top will dry out, but the base will still be sopping wet .

My Blaschak bags this season are the wettest I've ever seen in 10 years of burning .

That's what I saw with Blaschak late last season. I was not happy. I got them from a new supplier (to me - to save 20 bucks), one I will not use again.

Appears as if some retailers just let them sit uncovered ... and this is the result. Bad retailer bad.

SMITTY · Post by **SMITTY** » Wed. Jan. 28, 2015 11:12 am

Every dealer I've seen up this way just leaves them outdoors - the pallets take up valuable real estate, so I can't blame them there.

One thing I did notice though, is those tiny air holes they punch in the bags seem to be bigger than I have ever seen them this season. Maybe that's allowing more moisture to get inside ...

One thing is for certain - the moisture gets in, but does NOT come out as easily as it gets in ...

It's not affecting my burn at all ... although I do get varying depths in the bed - that could be from sticking wet coal ... but pouring wet coal into the hopper is starting to create little areas of rust.

lzaharis · Post by **lzaharis** » Wed. Jan. 28, 2015 11:20 am

For what it is worth,

obtaining your coal in the off season would allow you to
lay a round Warps Silage Tarp on the ground and cover the coal bags
with a second round warps silage tarp and seal it covering the upper
tarps edges with the bottom taps round edge and holding it down with
bricks and park a dehumdifier on one edge with the the coil
exposed and allowed to breath and you will can attach a hose to drain
the water from the tank or the drip pan of the dehumidifier and it will
work wonders.

The reason the coal gets wet is twofold. Anthracite coal like halite(rock salt)
is hygroscopic(attracts water) and the HDPE #4 bags hold any water that is
clinging to the coal.

The coal bags tend to have holes poked in them to remove air to make it easier to use
palletizing machines which have shrink wrapping machines to seal the edges of the pallets
to prevent the bags from slipping off the stack of bags. It would be nice if everyone
used pallet bags which would reduce the amount of moisture penetration to the
pallets of coal but as the pallets are stored out of doors the moisture can entire from below
the pallet unless the heavy paper barriers are used to cover the pallets.

A fifty three foot flat bed trailer will can carry 30 pallets of bagged coal but is limited to 22 tons being 22 pallets +- (without considering pallet weight).

SO an open lean too with a concrete floor being 16 feet wide and 60 feet long and having 20 feet of clear space
has 960 square feet of usable floor space.would store 68 pallets of coal in one layer, 67 pallets in the second layer and 66 pallets in the top layer, This area would store 101 pallets of bagged coal in total being slightly less than five truckloads (110 pallets) with NYS total truck weights of 80,000 pounds without R permits.

What Blashak does is bag the coal with the form fill and seal bagging systems and
they bag the coal not taking into account whether it is wet or not.

I know the reading coal dealer in Geneva being Townley Coal stores their bagged coal outdoors

As these coal dealers have fork lifts anyway they could stack the bagged coal
three or four pallets high by overlapping them in a running bond pattern
and storing them in a lean too shed would allow them to store huge amounts
of bagged coal out of the weather in a very small area.

Pacowy · Post by **Pacowy** » Wed. Jan. 28, 2015 1:05 pm

Back to the original question, is it not possible to drop the 100 lb sack to break most of the bonds the same as with the 40 lb? Do the woven bags retain enough water to make solid ice, or is it just (a lot of) damp coal stuck together?

Mike

DENNIS BAUER · Post by **DENNIS BAUER** » Wed. Jan. 28, 2015 1:15 pm

Same issue here. I just bought a pallet of Reading Coal (40lbs) and all the bags had a lot of water in them. Got them home and stacked up and they froze over night. I just drop them on the concrete. I don't like to fill the hopper with the bags because of space I use 5 gallon buckets. Once a week I go out and drop and break up enough bags to fill 7, five gallon buckets and bring them in and store them in the closet right next to the stove. Its a good project on Sundays afternoon when the Smoker is running. I can have them all filled and back in the house in less then 15 min. even with having to break them up. Drop Label down, label up, on the top then on the bottom cut bag open pour into buck. And repeat.

(Yes I will have a coal bin next year and be buying in bulk. I just bought the house this past fall and didn't know at the time if I was going to keep the coal stove or not. I am for sure at this point. Best heat I've ever used and I grew up on wood heat and could get firewood for free.)

lamina1982 · Post by **lamina1982** » Wed. Jan. 28, 2015 8:07 pm

Seems like just damp..no ozing water. This place bags there own and seals with a tied rope like feed. Just was surprised froze as wasnt when got delivered.
Was pretty tired after work so was failing at the picking up 100# and dropping it..lol..
Ya this summer will be bulk and bought during summer..just no other choice this year...thanks for sugg thus far

Phil May · Post by **Phil May** » Thu. Jan. 29, 2015 11:14 am

Pick them up and drop on floor. They will break up.

titleist1 · Post by **titleist1** » Thu. Jan. 29, 2015 12:59 pm

100lb bags!!! wow!! my herniated disc's just spasm'ed thinking about it!

Bags stay laying on the ground....
10" square hand tamper....

a couple 'thwacks' (technical term for raising and dropping the tamper) on the bags should break up the frozen coal.