Building a New Era Base Burner

 
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Post by Lightning » Wed. May. 27, 2015 9:30 pm

the Locke 120 has 1.38 sq. ft. of grate area and if you burn 2 #'s p.h. over that area you would have 35,880 BTU of released energy. which explains why in very similar houses and weather Buck47 was using about 1/3 as much coal as I was.
I don't follow. Are you saying his coal had 3 times the BTU as your coal? Or that his stove is 3 times more efficient than yours? Or that 90% of the heat produced from his coal remained in the house where only 30% of the heat produced from your coal remained in your house? I read and reread this thread a few times but still don't understand how 2 pounds of coal produces more than 25000 btus. This must be out of my league.


 
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Post by blrman07 » Wed. May. 27, 2015 9:33 pm

I am watching this thread so I can incorporate some of the ideas in that Locke 120 going into the church basement. Small congregation but the building will seat about 75 or so. I think the Locke will be just right and with the mods that KC is contemplating, I should be able to duplicate for the church.

Don't worry if it's puts out too much heat. You can always dial it back right? It's a coal stove, not a base loaded nuclear reactor. :)

If you are using the rule of thumb that one pound of coal represents 12,500 BTU's then two pounds is 25,000 BTU's right? Am I reading this wrong?

 
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Post by KingCoal » Wed. May. 27, 2015 9:40 pm

if 2 #'s of coal per sq. ft are burned in an area 1 sq. ft. you release 25-26000 btu.

if 2#'s of coal per sq. ft. are burned in an area 1.38 sq. ft. you release 35,880 btu.

 
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Post by KingCoal » Wed. May. 27, 2015 9:50 pm

blrman07 wrote:I am watching this thread so I can incorporate some of the ideas in that Locke 120 going into the church basement. Small congregation but the building will seat about 75 or so. I think the Locke will be just right and with the mods that KC is contemplating, I should be able to duplicate for the church.

Don't worry if it's puts out too much heat. You can always dial it back right? It's a coal stove, not a base loaded nuclear reactor. :)

If you are using the rule of thumb that one pound of coal represents 12,500 BTU's then two pounds is 25,000 BTU's right? Am I reading this wrong?
sorry I missed this. believe me even in stock form the 120 is alot more of a heater than it looks.

can you give some ideas of the sq. ft. of each floor and the ceiling heights ? cubic area is alot easier for me to calculate to.

as to the 2#'s of coal and BTU's, I probably started the whole mess of misunderstanding by not being clear that I was talking about 2#'s per sq. ft. of grate area.

 
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Post by Lightning » Wed. May. 27, 2015 10:07 pm

KingCoal wrote:if 2 #'s of coal per sq. ft are burned in an area 1 sq. ft. you release 25-26000 btu.

if 2#'s of coal per sq. ft. are burned in an area 1.38 sq. ft. you release 35,880 btu.
Oh OK. So what really happened was that 2.76 pounds of coal produced the 35,880 btus.

 
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Post by Lightning » Wed. May. 27, 2015 11:39 pm

I'm really not trying to be a pain in the a$$ :lol: but I just want to understand what going on here.
KingCoal wrote:FRANK has 1,08 sq. ft. of grate area and provided excellent comfort at 2 #'s p.h. if you throw out the .08 you could call that 26,000 BTU of released energy.
So, in this scenario your "Frank" burned 48 pounds this day at 2 pounds per hour, right?
KingCoal wrote:the Locke 120 has 1.38 sq. ft. of grate area and if you burn 2 #'s p.h. over that area you would have 35,880 BTU of released energy.
Then in this situation, to maintain a burn of 2 pounds per hour per square foot, you would actually burn 2.76 pounds (1.38 x 2 = 2.76) which would be 66.24 pounds per day (2.76 x 24 = 66.24).
KingCoal wrote:now, the 524 has 1.96 sq. ft. of grate area and if you burn the same 2 #'s p.h. over that area you would have 50, 960 BTU of released energy or nearly double what was happening with FRANK. that seems to mean that in order to use the 524 in my house i'd need to get it to run at about 1 # p.h. which would seem to be a tall order for that large a grate system.
Then in this example, to maintain a burn of 2 pounds per hour per square foot, you would actually burn 3.92 pounds per hour which would be 94.08 pounds per day.

So my question is, you don't think the big stove will idle down to 48 pounds per day to match the output of "Frank"?

and I'm still confused on how this makes any relevance to the reason that Buck burned a third of the coal that you did.. could ya help me out with that?

 
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Post by blrman07 » Thu. May. 28, 2015 5:35 am

Rant begins......Come on guys, lets not go down a rabbit trail in this thread. I suggest that if you want to debate the theoretical amount of heat that coal can produce on a particular size grate, start a different thread. This one is supposed to be building new era base burners. The mods have allowed this thread to run for virtually forever because of the work being done on it to see if "modern" equipment can produce the same output as the vintage equipment. We know that to produce the vintage equipment with the look and performance using today's labor and material would have astronomical prices. Kc's first pass at this concept was a success which lots of folks got involved in and contributed to the work. Yes yes I know that before a flame starts you have to have lots of calculations and concept discussion but lets not reinvent the wheel so to speak on how many BTU's are available in a pound of coal. That was determined when coal was discovered and determined to be a viable heating source.

I want to hear and see what KC is going to do with his Locke so I can incorporate some of the mods into the stove I plan on putting in this church to help them get going for fall which starts on September 23rd. That is a real world problem for this tiny congregation out in the country in Helfenstein Pa. If they can't get a handle on their heating cost, they will close. We can all help them keep that from happening by contributing just like we did with KC's first "new era base burner." I for one looked forward to seeing the photo's and following the debates on whether or not it was possible to do it. We now know it's possible due to KC's fine work. I fully intend to give all the credit to God and the great people on this forum and will tout it's great work on making it possible for this tiny church to remain open. For a church to have to close due to heating cost in the middle of the southern anthracite coal region is a sin per the nuns at my Catholic grade school would have said. Lets not allow that to happen.

You may not be able to physically put your hands on the stove but our combined grey matter can easily make this little church in the middle of the southern anthracite coal region a beacon in the country. The reason the original church closed on their 99th birthday was the cost to heat the building. I not only will be putting this stove in but will have to teach the folks how to burn coal. There is so much coal around here that people pave their driveways with it because it's cheaper than gravel. Seriously guys coal is so cheap here that people use it for landscaping!!!! These folks won't care if they burn 2 pounds or 2.whatever pounds to get 25,000 BTU's or 35,000 or whatever amount of BTU's. They just want to be able to keep their church open and I want this forum to help them do it.

September 23rd is only 117 days away. that is only 16.7 weeks away.

Here is a link to the countdown for the first day of fall. http://days.to/23-september/2015

Ok Rant is over. Thank you for listening and reading. If you disagree with me please send it in a PM so we don't bog this thread down.


 
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Post by KingCoal » Thu. May. 28, 2015 5:59 am

yep, you see the 120 has some special advantages. primarily in the way it was designed and built but also in the way it burns as a result.

on the hypothetical day, because the 120 has such a large fire pot that has just average brick lining and little else between the fire and the space heated the radiant exchange is very good so.......you can turn it down to less than my stoves 2#'s per sq. ft. p.h. and still be just as warm.

this is the whole base heater and mica radiator premise. less thermal resistance coupled to higher radiant surface area to fire pot area. the Locke and Warm Morning stoves are very good in this point too.

yes, in all reality I can no doubt get the 524 to run as low and slow as any GW #8. just pull the fire bed down from 19 in. wide x 22 in. deep to 12 in. deep and close it down like any other stove.

 
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Post by KingCoal » Thu. May. 28, 2015 6:17 am

blrman07 wrote:Rant begins......Come on guys, lets not go down a rabbit trail in this thread. I suggest that if you want to debate the theoretical amount of heat that coal can produce on a particular size grate, start a different thread. This one is supposed to be building new era base burners. The mods have allowed this thread to run for virtually forever because of the work being done on it to see if "modern" equipment can produce the same output as the vintage equipment. We know that to produce the vintage equipment with the look and performance using today's labor and material would have astronomical prices. Kc's first pass at this concept was a success which lots of folks got involved in and contributed to the work. Yes yes I know that before a flame starts you have to have lots of calculations and concept discussion but lets not reinvent the wheel so to speak on how many BTU's are available in a pound of coal. That was determined when coal was discovered and determined to be a viable heating source.

I want to hear and see what KC is going to do with his Locke so I can incorporate some of the mods into the stove I plan on putting in this church to help them get going for fall which starts on September 23rd. That is a real world problem for this tiny congregation out in the country in Helfenstein Pa. If they can't get a handle on their heating cost, they will close. We can all help them keep that from happening by contributing just like we did with KC's first "new era base burner." I for one looked forward to seeing the photo's and following the debates on whether or not it was possible to do it. We now know it's possible due to KC's fine work. I fully intend to give all the credit to God and the great people on this forum and will tout it's great work on making it possible for this tiny church to remain open. For a church to have to close due to heating cost in the middle of the southern anthracite coal region is a sin per the nuns at my Catholic grade school would have said. Lets not allow that to happen.

You may not be able to physically put your hands on the stove but our combined grey matter can easily make this little church in the middle of the southern anthracite coal region a beacon in the country. The reason the original church closed on their 99th birthday was the cost to heat the building. I not only will be putting this stove in but will have to teach the folks how to burn coal. There is so much coal around here that people pave their driveways with it because it's cheaper than gravel. Seriously guys coal is so cheap here that people use it for landscaping!!!! These folks won't care if they burn 2 pounds or 2.whatever pounds to get 25,000 BTU's or 35,000 or whatever amount of BTU's. They just want to be able to keep their church open and I want this forum to help them do it.

September 23rd is only 117 days away. that is only 16.7 weeks away.

Here is a link to the countdown for the first day of fall. http://days.to/23-september/2015

Ok Rant is over. Thank you for listening and reading. If you disagree with me please send it in a PM so we don't bog this thread down.
Rev. Larry,

i'm only quoting the whole post as a means of showing that I saw it and that my next comments will be understood as toward it's content and you in particular.

please, see if you can get the floor sq. ftage. ceiling heights and interior lay outs ( walls, halls, stairs, etc.) posted here.

just sketches are more than enough. I need to know where the stove is going to sit in the area and are you intending to use a grate over the stove from the lower level up into the upper level and perimeter registers to bring it back down ? or a bonnet with a fan to blow it up and gravity reg,s to have it come back ?

from the results that Buck47 has shared it is very likely that the Locke 120 you have will be enough as is. the trick is that these stoves do best running at a near constant. this will mean that to have the cubic area of the building be comfortable it will have to be running atleast a day ahead of building use.

thanks,
steve

 
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Post by franco b » Thu. May. 28, 2015 12:04 pm

blrman07 wrote:I want to hear and see what KC is going to do with his Locke so I can incorporate some of the mods into the stove I plan on putting in this church
I don't think the stove needs any mods. The mods will be to convert a radiant stove into a circulating one. A tall order if the stove has to go into a basement.

The old hot air gravity furnaces used a grill above it with the center portion for rising hot air and the outer perimeter as a return. That means surrounding the stove with two sheet metal enclosures while still leaving room to tend it.

Without something like this the basement will receive most of the heat.

I would forget the whole thing and install the stove upstairs in the area being heated and connect to a metal chimney straight up and out. The interior portion of the chimney would be plain smoke pipe and the only extra expense would be the short run of insulated pipe, plus support piece, flashing and cap. Often pipe can be found cheaply in good shape if it has been used for wood burning.

 
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Post by Sunny Boy » Thu. May. 28, 2015 12:33 pm

Just came across a booklet for Glenwood furnaces with that exact setup - heat rising through a floor grill directly above and connected to the top of the furnace with the outer perimeter of the floor grill ducted to another jacket surrounding the furnace down to the cold air inlet at the base. They called it a "single pipe" furnace.

But they show it used for houses not larger buildings.

https://archive.org/search.php?query=Glenwood%20Stove

In a large space, it's better to put cold air return grills near the outer walls of the building to pull the cold air from there, otherwise cold air currents are being drawn over people's feet to reach the centrally located cold air return.

Another benefit to having it in the basement is water pipe freeze protection.

Paul

 
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Post by Buck47 » Sun. May. 31, 2015 9:31 am

KingCoal wrote:
Buck47 wrote:Indeed Rev, this is a most enjoyable thread to read.

The photo of the stove inside that car is a classic. I too had no idea they made a stove of this design that large.

From the photo it appears to have three of the large fire bricks rather than the two found in the Locke120.

Funny how the first few stoves are the hardest to find ... then they just start appearing all over the place when a guy's not looking :)

Regards: john
the "flat fire bricks in the 524 are MUCH bigger than the same ones in the 120 and there are 12 of them. along with 12 of the flue bricks and 3 of the pedestal briks at the base of the flues. i'll get a pic of the 2 diff. "flat bricks side by side and ad it here as an edit.

and yeah, it's like when you learn to hunt mushrooms. you swear there ain't ANY then a practiced eye takes you back thru the same area and them dang things are EVERYWHERE.

glad to see you are still watchin over me John. :)
Sorry about the slow response, I've been so busy with demands of spring on the farm have not kept up with the forum traffic.

Those fire brick are much larger, always enjoyed the photos.

Your mushroom comment is hysterical and so on point. Thanks for the good laugh.

Regards: john

 
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Post by KingCoal » Sun. May. 31, 2015 2:12 pm

always good to hear from you John, i'm sure you are plenty busy.

i,m going to see a fab. shop I haven't dealt with before about rolling barrels this week. might get lucky there too.

be safe,
steve

 
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Post by KingCoal » Sun. May. 31, 2015 3:39 pm

KingCoal wrote:i would like some back up on my calc's of the 524's burn capacity.

i know several of you guys know the formula for figuring the rate ( #'s per hr.) based on sq. in.'s of grate area and from there BTU's p.h.

i'm using 9.5 x 9.5 x 3.14 for 283 sq. in.'s or 1.965 sq. ft. of grate area.

i'll come back to this later with some background from my conversion stove



thanks,
steve
here's alittle blast from the past, I found right here in our own archives.

Warm Morning Stove,, Locke 524

40 x 60 x20 would be about 48,000 c.f. heated "no problem" with a 524.

could we make an guestimate that a Locke 120 , being just over half the capacity, would heat half as much space ? say, ( EDIT for correction of math ) 30 x 40 x20 ceilings or 2 floors, or combinations there of ?

how big did you say the church is Rev. Larry ?
Last edited by KingCoal on Sun. May. 31, 2015 6:00 pm, edited 1 time in total.

 
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Post by KingCoal » Sun. May. 31, 2015 4:01 pm

i knew I had seen this before. I love it when a plan comes together !!

The Care and Feeding of a Warm Morning Stove


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